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Thread: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

  1. #101
    Geuvesa's Avatar Cornicularius
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Majonga, thank you for the in-depth information, I saw comments earlier that mentioned that Spartans were not trained? They began training at the age of 7! Samurai and Spartans were both highly professional soldiers. Yes both have been incredibly pumped up beyond their truths through movies, and 300 was entertainment not fact. Who really believes that the Spartans ran around in nothing but a girdle, greaves, a helmet, and a crimson cape?

  2. #102
    ♔Mandelus♔'s Avatar Shuei
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Geuvesa View Post
    Majonga, thank you for the in-depth information, I saw comments earlier that mentioned that Spartans were not trained? They began training at the age of 7! Samurai and Spartans were both highly professional soldiers. Yes both have been incredibly pumped up beyond their truths through movies, and 300 was entertainment not fact. Who really believes that the Spartans ran around in nothing but a girdle, greaves, a helmet, and a crimson cape?
    Well, the "300" are as most people know out of the Comics from Frank Miller. He made his Comics straight out of the story / history given by Herodot and so we have the "fairy tale looking" of "300" at least. The batte of the Thermopyles ist historical fact as the same way King Leonidas was fact and that he dies with Spartans there in fight against Persia under Xerxes the Great.
    Frank Miller did it more or less 1:1 as the Greek historian(s) told the story. Let's take a closer look on the things there and we understand it more, why it looks "unrealistic" in the film and in the Comic itself by these 2 examples:

    a) Xerxes the Great
    The suffix "the Great" is given to historical persons who made in history great things, as for example Alexander the Great, Peter the Great, Frederic the Great and so on.
    But the suffix "the Great" is here translated in great = tall, so Xerxes must be a tall men of 2,50 meters ....

    b) The Inmortals
    In origin the Inmortals were the Elite Warriors of Persia and git their name because any losses were a.s.a.p. full filled so that they had always full strength!
    In "300" the inmortals must be of course zombi monsters = inmortal monsters as zombies are.

    So "300" is in fact a 1:1 telling as Herodot and other historians told the story of this war and battle and it is the same style as the story from Homer with the Ilias or does anyone really believe the things told by Homer with creatures as for example with the cyclop?
    But it has also a true core of it as the greek siege of Troja and so on, but it was the style to tell true history packed in fairy tales at this age.

    @ Majonga
    Being also historian with Diploma I can only agree with that what you wrote!

    I will only also say as " @ all" that any single spartan had the abilities of being an officer at other greek cities and this was because of their professional status in comparsion to most others.
    Remember the scene at the movie "300" when they meet the Arcadians:
    Leonidas asked them what their professions are and they named several things as blacksmith, farmer and so on. The same question told to the spartans and their answer showed the true difference (and again a true core in the movie) why they are other to the rest of Greece, because their profession is war!

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  3. #103
    Nicolaos's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    in fact it werent 300 spartans fighting the persians. the number of greek troops in that battle was roughly 6000 men, still a bunch of brave men fighting at least 50000 persians.
    there were not only spartans in that battle, also thespians, thebans and light auxiliary troops fought on greek side.

    a comparison between spartans and samurai is almost impossible, the era and way of warfare is too different. how would the spartans have developed if they would have remained until 1500? what would have happened throughout history if the spartans were actually on an island like the samurai?
    just imagine a spartan phalanx moving towards a bunch of samurai. the spartans would have to expect archer fire (and muscets) and close to close combat with sword armed samurai. i think in such a battle the samurai would have won, ancient soldiers vs medieval soldiers is not fair.

  4. #104
    Lysimachus's Avatar Spirit Cleric
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    a comparison between spartans and samurai is almost impossible, the era and way of warfare is too different. how would the spartans have developed if they would have remained until 1500?
    They wouldn't exist. IIRC, the Agoge was plagued by the fact that it was limited in its manpower, hence why whenever the Spartiates were defeated in battle it would be a huge blow to the Spartans because practically of their forces would have been destroyed. Provided the Spartans did exist in to the 16th Century however, they would have had to have relaxed the expectations they imposed on their population because it was too strict.

    what would have happened throughout history if the spartans were actually on an island like the samurai?
    Then they would have ended up like Athens, relying massively on their navy.

    just imagine a spartan phalanx moving towards a bunch of samurai. the spartans would have to expect archer fire (and muscets) and close to close combat with sword armed samurai. i think in such a battle the samurai would have won, ancient soldiers vs medieval soldiers is not fair.
    Their two fighting styles were complete contrasts of each other. The samurai wanted to face their foes in a one-on-one duel, whereas the phalanx revolved around a coherent block of troops working as a team to defeat their foe. I have no idea how a battle between the Ancient Spartans and the Medieval Samurai would have ended up as, but just bear in mind that the Spartans did adapt to change. After Philip II of Macedon defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea, the Greeks would gradually introduce the sarissa in to their armies (including the Spartans), so it wouldn't be surprising if they made use of perhaps, captured enemy muskets along with their gunpowder.
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  5. #105
    Count of Montesano's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    more apt way to have said "not all of them were amazing warriors" would have been to say "most of them were bureaucrats and tax collectors."

    Not every Samurai kept up to date on the latest methods of fighting, and generally were relegated to official duties in managing the country in more practical matters... This was true even during the warring states to a degree.
    True but then again the Spartans also went through their own decline after the Peloponnesian War. So I'd have to imagine that in the Spike "scenario" you'd have the most battle-hardened survivor of the Persian Wars squaring off against the toughest samurai of the Sengoku period.

    What I really don't get about this program is the experts never extrapolate from actual historical events. In past episodes, the Scottish highlanders beat the Zulus. This really makes no sense if you look at history. I don't believe that the Zulus - who defeated the best troops of the British Empire in several battles - would lose to medieval Scots.

    If I was trying to match up the Spartans versus the Samurai, I'd look at which foes they historically had an easy time with, and which foes gave them a lot of trouble. For example, the Samurai would have the advantage of lightning fast horse archer attacks. How did the Spartans historically deal with similar attacks from the Persian horse archers? I've read that the Samurai at first struggled against the highly organized Mongol army. Would the Spartan phalanx give them similar problems?

    But hey, that would require too much analysis. Spike TV is all about cheesy computer analysis and gimick weapons,

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by RoadKill View Post
    Why do people even watch that stupid show. It intrigued me at first but when I saw that Spartan Vs. Ninja episdoe, I was like wtf...

    Also why the heck was the ninja hitting his sheild? He could've easily hit his legs, or pull our a katana and slice his unprotected neck, arms, back of legs. Besides why the heck would a samuri wait till the spartan was a swords reach away from him to shoot the arrow. Totally illogical.

    What's even worse about that show is the pirate vs. knight...

    Dude its gunpowder vs. a dude on a horse, with a lance and sword. It doesn't even matter since gunpowders whole purpose was to penetrate armor. Don't even mention the modern warriors, those are just beyond dumb.

    /rant over
    I totally agree! Not many people know how strong the katana and ninjato are. .They're the strongest swords in the world they can both cut through solid steel so the ninja cold of easily cut threw the Spartan's shield almost like butter since Bronze is much weaker than steel
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  7. #107
    Biggreenfellow's Avatar Suguchi
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by PVT Bobson View Post
    I totally agree! Not many people know how strong the katana and ninjato are. .They're the strongest swords in the world they can both cut through solid steel so the ninja cold of easily cut threw the Spartan's shield almost like butter since Bronze is much weaker than steel
    Actually, an aspis/hoplon is made out of 2 cm thick wood covered by bronze plating.

    Which brings me to my main issue with these kind of interwebnetz wars; in the end, it doesn't matter which warrior could have been superior, it's all about which warrior has the largest group of fanbois. Both samurai and spartans have been tremendously hyped by (modern) media and turned into some kind of supernatural breeds of demi-god-like warriors.

  8. #108
    Lord of Lost Socks's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Btw, the spartan is clearly cheating in any case.
    At 0:30 or 0:31 you can see the spartan having the shield in his left hand. In 0:33 it's suddenly on his right. I say this fight was rigged!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taUHy...ayer_embedded#! there's the vid if anyone missed it

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  9. #109
    a tw player's Avatar Sagittarius
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    In a phalanx the Spartans would rape anybody (well, apart from gunpowder armed units ) due to their society being focused just around their military and the men being trained from an extremely young age. Samurai's too were great fighters, in general, but they would certainly not be able to break through a line of Spartan hoplites.

    1v1 the outcome would be pretty 50/50 and mostly dependant on individual circumstances IMO, but in greater numbers on both sides, there would be no doubt in the victor (assuming we aren't talking about 16th century Samurai armed with large amounts of gunpowder. Seriously that's 1600 years+ ahead though lol so a bit of an unfair contest there)
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  10. #110
    Robertclive's Avatar Equites
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    katanas can't rip through dog****

  11. #111
    Soulstrider's Avatar Centurio
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by PVT Bobson View Post
    I totally agree! Not many people know how strong the katana and ninjato are. .They're the strongest swords in the world they can both cut through solid steel so the ninja cold of easily cut threw the Spartan's shield almost like butter since Bronze is much weaker than steel
    I think it has already been proved that the cut trough steel reputation is only a myth.
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  12. #112
    Count of Montesano's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    I wonder how many people who are disparaging the katana have ever trained with one. I'm not an expert to be sure, but I have some experience training with the katana when I lived in Japan. It's a superb weapon that in the hands of a master can easily slice a body in half (I've seen this demonstrated with tatami mats filling in for a torso). Now, I'm not saying that the katana could cut through a Spartan's shield. But one-on-one the Samurai would be aiming for any unprotected part of the Spartan's body. The katana is light enough that IMHO the Samurai would be able to eventually get past the Spartan's shield and take out his spear arm, leg, or neck.

    In phalanx this would be much harder, but then again I'd bet the Samurai would soften the phalanx up with mounted archers, then fix the front of the phalanx with troops armed with Naginatas. Wikipedia states the Spartan dory was 2-3 meters in length. The Naginata is slightly shorter (2 meters) but still probably long enough to at least absorb the initial assault. The Samurai swordsmen could then put serious pressure on the phalanx, especially on the right flank where the Spartans would not benefit as much from their interlocking shields. The Samurai are the faster force, so it's very probable they would be able to pull off a successful flanking manuever.

    In other words, the Samurai would use similar methods to destroying the phalanx as the Romans did. The Samurai would undoubtedly suffer greater casualties than the Romans as they lacked shields, but ancient Asian societies had a lot more manpower to burn than their Western counterparts.

  13. #113
    Shaio's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Count of Montesano View Post
    I wonder how many people who are disparaging the katana have ever trained with one. I'm not an expert to be sure, but I have some experience training with the katana when I lived in Japan. It's a superb weapon that in the hands of a master can easily slice a body in half (I've seen this demonstrated with tatami mats filling in for a torso). Now, I'm not saying that the katana could cut through a Spartan's shield. But one-on-one the Samurai would be aiming for any unprotected part of the Spartan's body. The katana is light enough that IMHO the Samurai would be able to eventually get past the Spartan's shield and take out his spear arm, leg, or neck.
    Well if it comes down to an eventually thing, the guy with the shield has alot more chance of successfully blocking any particular attack over the guy with a two handed weapon, so the eventually is probably going to go to a shortsword, and shield over a two hander of any kind, converse none of the samurais weapons were effective for blocking in my mind.

    In the particular situation they did with the weapons they used on deadliest warrior they probably got it right for this one. both of the warriors armor effectively blocked hits from the others weapons, except for the kabanto(sp?) but ill disregard that because its unwieldy as hell, atleast to my eyes it just scream stab me in the eyes when your holding it.

    So for the spartan to win, he has to get past a weapon block, and hit an unarmored area.

    for the samrui to land a deadly blow he has to 1 get past spartan weapon 2 get past spartan shield 3 land blow unarmored part of body. With a slashing weapon like the katana i can imagine this could be difficult, can a katana effectively stab?

    It is blatantly obvious why the spartan wins in a computer simulation.
    The samurai had 3 chances to fail on any blow they may make, while the spartan only two.

  14. #114
    BunnyPoopCereal's Avatar Pili Prior
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Can anyone tell me why the vikings preferred the shield? and does anyone know what the vikings used to say about the shield?

    The samurais thought the shield to be a weakness and it was dishonorable, but that's a moral standard and because of it I believe it made them vulnerable in the battlefield.

  15. #115
    Cornicularius
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    The bronze and leather armour and bronze sword of the Spartan don't stand a chance against iron armour and iron swords let alone the steel armour and steel swords of the Samarui. Samarui also have the advantage of a thousand years of technology and tactics. The Samarui might not be able to get past the Spartans shield but there is no way that a Spartan could get past a Samarui's steel sword and steel armour with just a bronze sword.

    Samarui had lighter and stronger composite armour giving them speed. The bronze armour of the spartans was heavy and much inferior to that of the Samarui. The Spartans would tire out more easily and the Spartan's helmet restricted his vision and so would have less battlefield awareness. The Spartans fought more varied enemies than the Samarui, however, the Spartans had an extremely rigid style of fighting and never ever adapted whereas the Samarui had an unusually high degree of tactical flexibility.

  16. #116
    Nicolaos's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    the cutting behavior of a katana is actually pretty similiar to the one of a european sword.
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  17. #117
    ♔GrinningManiac♔'s Avatar Hastatas Posterior
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Good Grief, people watch this garbage?

    This is literally the same as getting a figure of a knight and your toy Optimus Prime and smashing them together whilst making explosion noises

  18. #118
    Biggreenfellow's Avatar Suguchi
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Quote Originally Posted by Nakandakari Lobato View Post
    (...)that we're spending time in a "My Dad stronger than your Dad" argument. I suppose that the Spartans could win in hand to hand combat versus spec ops forces as well. That samurai katanas could cut through Abrams M1 tanks like butter and other such rot.

    (...)

    The samurai and even the mighty Spartans were human men: some extraordinary, but most average. Being average is not a bad trait when combined with nobly staring into the face of death. It is heroic then, for knowing that one is mortal, and yet still willing to cast away one's life for the good of their people.
    QFT.

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  19. #119
    Amorphos's Avatar sage
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    Here’s an image of the Viking Vs samurai, its not hard to tell which is by far the more sophisticated, but there is a few hundred years between them. I would think its similar between spartan and samurai.

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  20. #120
    Emperor BLUBBS VII's Avatar Yoda
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    Default Re: Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

    The tests speak for themselves. I believe Deadliest Warrior 90% because, even if you think that one warrior should beat the other, unlike the audience the show puts their skills and weapons to the test and they get an idea on who is deadliest. As Max Geiger said in one of the Aftermaths whoever gets the edge doesnt count on the simulator much. Why 90%? Cause they leave some necessary tests out. The Al Capone vs Jesse James episode WAS ABSOLUTLEY REDICULOUS!
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