Deadliest Warrior - Spartan Vs Samurai

[Manco]

The katana isn't anything special, it's basically just a curved sword. Curved swords are good slashing weapons, but fare much worse against armour.
It's famed construction method is largely myth. Only the highest quality blades would be made with that much care, and some say that's mostly because the Japanese iron ore was of very low quality. Essentially necessitating such an intensive technique to achieve a same quality blade as in the Middle East and Europe.
As for mobility, the difference between a Western knight in plate armour and a samurai in lamellar would be negligible. Most difference in speed would come from fighting style, rather than weight of equipment.

A knight in plate versus a samurai in lamellar? I'd give it to the knight, katana's don't fare well against armour and aren't exactly prime thrusting weapons. Most well known types of Western swords have superior thrusting ability to katanas, so lamellar would not be as protective.
But this is pure conjecture. A samurai fights with spear and bow mostly, while a knight would use a lance and axes or maces to defeat armour. Both use their swords mainly as a status symbol (of course this varies in periods)

As for a Spartan hoplite? Barring personal skill, I would admit that a shield can be a powerful tool. But then again a samurai has a bow.

Some interesting articles on the subject:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/longsword-and-katana.html
http://www.thearma.org/essays/katanavs.htm
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/nobest.htm

And this one pretty much delves into the hype of the katana
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/hype.htm

[Shaio]

Ah come on! Dwarf fortress has the most accurate combat simulator shown yet in any game. (Still flawed, though.)

Yes, hence why i said dwarf fortress was probably better.

Spartan flee as soon as they saw a samurai

Yes because Spartans are totally known for there historical cowardice. /sarcasam.

But my guess(based on a hunch) is that even though the Katana won't cut through the Aspis like butter, it would at least carve into the shield to some degree. Of course, that would depend on the quality of the sword and the skill of the user as well. I won't expect a guy who never held a sword before in his life using a Ashigaru-quality Katana to do it.

One thing I noticed is this; a lot of people comment on the toughness of the Aspis, but they don't say anything about the quality of Japanese armor at all. The Samurai in the show was wearing what looked like a 16th century Tousei-Gusoku armor, meaning the armor is made out of steel plates banded together, with the thickest part being about 4mm thick. Yet, in the show the iron Spartan sword pierced it through like paper. Is that really possible?

I don't see a katana even moderately damaging an apsis within the time span of a normal fight.

The fight in the show, for the like 20th time, has nothing to do with the simulation or anything, its a mock-up after thieve done everything just so we have a fight to watch.

The actual simulation is supposedly after 1000 battles, the spartan won 522.

Ill give numbers for anyone incapable of watching actual show(cough piratebay.com).

spartan kills.
jav 16
spear 339
sheild 162
short sword 10
total 527

samuri
yumi 175
naginata 141
kanabo 142
katana 15
total 473

As you can see both the swords were practically worthless.

Still shoert sword through lamellar aermor isnt the most unrealistic thing ive seen on that show during fights, the pirate takes like a flail to the face at the start of the fight... which is like 100% fatal. literally i saw that and was like "that was quick" then fight kept going.

There testing methods suck to.

[mcantu]

as i mentioned in another thread, it is virtually impossible for any slashing/cutting sword to penetrate either Western or Samurai armor (this applies to Western swords as well). to object is to strike at unarmored areas or those where the armor is weakest, not slice through plate or lamellar armor...

[MaximiIian]

Yet, in the show the iron Spartan sword pierced it through like paper. Is that really possible?

I don't remember that happening in the re-enactment or during any of the tests (poor tests they may be). They showed the spear and the sword stabbing at the armour, and it didn't pierce worth a damn.
I mean, the re-enactment is just eye-candy. It's not as important as the simulation in determining the results. And IIRC, the Spartan got the kill by stabbing the samurai in the neck; I watched the episode in question just two days ago.

[Modestus]

This was one of the best episodes, Spartan Warrior V House plant.

Actual clip from show.



The Spartan was more manoeuvrable but won in the end because after promising his wife to water the plant he forgot.

Actual clip from show.

[Morray]

Haha this thread is so silly I love it! And were there actually guys called Immortals in the Persian army? I truly thought they weremade up!

Anyway, I worked with the guys who do the BBFC on this show and they had to cancel one of the shows that the guys made guess what the Vs was???

IRA TERRORIST Vs ALKIDA TERRORIST!!!!

Haha, They said it was distastfully hilarious! but that the end battle was really funny, the Alkieda guy used an RPG on the Irish man missed and got blown up by a car bomb! Haha, something like that anyway...

They said (Obviously) That it was a bit too close to home for a lot of English people and that most Americans didn't understand that there was more than one different type of TERRORIST!

Bless...

[Biggreenfellow]

This was one of the best episodes, Spartan Warrior V House plant.

Actual clip from show.



The Spartan was more manoeuvrable but won in the end because after promising his wife to water the plant he forgot.

Actual clip from show.

That's totally BS man. Those leaves are obviously armour piercing.

[maxlurifax]

Sure the spartans were prehistoric and fought in bronze armor and the samurai were a couple of thousand years more modern in technology and fightingstyle. But what if the spartans had lasers mounted on their shoulders?

[Dai-Sifu]

Sure the spartans were prehistoric and fought in bronze armor and the samurai were a couple of thousand years more modern in technology and fightingstyle. But what if the spartans had lasers mounted on their shoulders?

Exactly - The weapons and tactics of the Samurai were much advanced compared to that of a Spartan Hoplite. It's like saying an 18th century Red Coat against a modern U.S Marine - Unfair comparison - The show and its conclusions are flawed. Even when they try to do the team comparisons - eg. the Yakuza vs The Mafia - or the Spetsnaz/Green Berets, coming down to the Ballistic knife beating the green beret - just ridiculous

[Tarusinas]

This was one of the best episodes, Spartan Warrior V House plant.

Actual clip from show.



The Spartan was more manoeuvrable but won in the end because after promising his wife to water the plant he forgot.

Actual clip from show.

Just great! The first that let me smile today..thx!

[Chlodwig I.]

http://edsitement.neh.gov/lesson_ima...lite_New02.jpg

I can only find document and draw in bottle that show a hoplite use it overarm
read some Osprey's book too but nothing change
can you gimme some source prove that Hoplite fight in underarm way (not 300 film damm it)
after all I don't think Osprey can make such a mistake about how hoplite use their weapon
and because they always fight in formation that make them have to perfect the overarm using
and you know Spartan famous because their disciplined and well trained(not because red cape or armor)
Do you really think a warrior that always fight in formation can do much in individual fight?
Do you really think a warrior that so disciplined and well trained in overarm way will show you a underarm fight?

Sorry but whats the use of a lance if you use/grab it overarm like a javeline?
if you take a look at the pictures above

overarm (like a javeline)
means like you can see in the picture that you carry the lance over your shoulder.
that reduces the range of the lance by almost 50% because you have to grab it in the middle ....
(you loose 1 or 2,5 Meters range depending on which lance you use)

you can only stab downwards and only at enemies that are very close in front of you
because of the anatomy of your arm/hand
it is also much more exhausting to carry a lance overarm
a attack is much weaker because of your anatomy
you can't defend yourself against cavalry! (again because of the anatomy)

underarm
easier to attack and you have more attack power because you can put
your own weight/mass into the attack
it is easier and less exhausting to carry a lance underarm because
your underarm supports your hand (lever)
you got a higher range because through the support of the underarm
you can grab the lance closer to the end.
useful against cavalry because you can easily and very fast put the end of the lance into the earth
and raise the lance against the attacking cavalry.
by raising his arm up to his shoulder the guy behind you can also use his spear (spearwall)


I haven't read and don't know this Osprey
but I guess this guy never tried to fight with a spear/lance
because if you try to you will for sure use it underarm
because that gives you much more fighting possibilities
especially if you are in a close formation

[King_Azzole]

I see everyone getting into specifics here and trying to break this down, but I would like to point out the simple fact that the spartan has and is well trained with the hoplon, and that alone would give him the edge over a samurai. Not saying a Samurai could not score a kill vs a spartan hoplite, just saying that I would give the edge to the spartan for the hoplon alone. A shield is more than just a protection, its also a weapon.

[nameless]

So what Samurai's aren't well trained or skilled either?

[mcantu]

http://edsitement.neh.gov/lesson_ima...lite_New02.jpg




Sorry but whats the use of a lance if you use/grab it overarm like a javeline?
if you take a look at the pictures above

overarm (like a javeline)
means like you can see in the picture that you carry the lance over your shoulder.
that reduces the range of the lance by almost 50% because you have to grab it in the middle ....
(you loose 1 or 2,5 Meters range depending on which lance you use)

you can only stab downwards and only at enemies that are very close in front of you
because of the anatomy of your arm/hand
it is also much more exhausting to carry a lance overarm
a attack is much weaker because of your anatomy
you can't defend yourself against cavalry! (again because of the anatomy)

underarm
easier to attack and you have more attack power because you can put
your own weight/mass into the attack
it is easier and less exhausting to carry a lance underarm because
your underarm supports your hand (lever)
you got a higher range because through the support of the underarm
you can grab the lance closer to the end.
useful against cavalry because you can easily and very fast put the end of the lance into the earth
and raise the lance against the attacking cavalry.
by raising his arm up to his shoulder the guy behind you can also use his spear (spearwall)


I haven't read and don't know this Osprey
but I guess this guy never tried to fight with a spear/lance
because if you try to you will for sure use it underarm
because that gives you much more fighting possibilities
especially if you are in a close formation

picture being in a phalanx or shield wall...now picture the soldiers holding spears underarm...there is no way for the spear to be used without jamming the rear of the spear into the stomach/shield of the soldier behind you.

you should head over to the RTR (of which i am a member) or EB mod forums. the historians on both teams agree that hoplites fought with overarm spears at least when in formation

[King_Azzole]

So what Samurai's aren't well trained or skilled either?

The way I see it both are elite soldiers and the training should not even be mentioned. It boils down to armaments in the end, and the hoplon gives the spartan the edge he needs to defeat the samurai in more engagements than the samurai would have otherwise. Its versatility as a shield (and weapon) is just more practical and effective than any weapon in the samurai's arsenal, even more so in the hands of a spartan.

Edit: on a side thought, without the hoplon the fight would be much different, the samurai's steel weapons and armor would most likely prevail over the spartan bronze age equipment. Its the hoplon alone that gives me the feeling that the spartan would have a higher ratio of wins in 1000 or so battles. Especially if the fight was more than 1 v 1.

[vietanh797]

I haven't read and don't know this Osprey
but I guess this guy never tried to fight with a spear/lance
because if you try to you will for sure use it underarm
because that gives you much more fighting possibilities
especially if you are in a close formation

I can only say that
Osprey is a author with 30 years experience military historical researcher/writer
He also have more than a hundred books about Military
If you still think you are right I suggest you call 10 men and stand in close square
everyone hold a stick long about 2m
then try to use it underarm

I think someone will punch your face because his stomach hurt by your idea so run as soon as you hear a scream

[Manco]

Osprey isn't an author, it's a publishing house.
And it's quite often criticised for sensationalizing history.

Though I tend to agree with you on over arm use. I don't see hundreds of guys in close order using under arm, unless they like hitting the guy behind them in the balls.

[vietanh797]

My mistake
it because my English not good too
thank for correct
but I think I read somewhere that the writer of those books have 30years experience and more than 100 books

[BunnyPoopCereal]

The picture of the hoplites shows the armies upper handed because they cant get around their shields since the guys had their shields next to one another BUT if it was a one on one, then yeah! the spartan is going to use every angle available.

[vietanh797]

The picture of the hoplites shows the armies upper handed because they cant get around their shields since the guys had their shields next to one another BUT if it was a one on one, then yeah! the spartan is going to use every angle available.

you think they famous for one on one fight?
hell no
they famous because their training is best and disciplined
to archive st like that the training in one on one fight also have to relate to formation fight
that mean they better use overarm all the time to make it be perfect when come to war