Banners and Officers - more detailed unit commands please

[Kinjo]

After seeing some of the new screen shots released for STW2 I am glad to see Nobori (banners) in the ranks. I can remember when the first few screen shots of empire was released and their were no standard bearers at all. One cool feature I noticed about the nobori in STW2 is that when you fight night battles a lantern is hanging from the top of the banner. The one thing that I don't like about the nobori in the pics is they are too small which kind of defeats the purpose of them, you can barely notice them amongst the ranks. They should be at least twice the height that they are in the pics.


In game screen shots

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I understand that the game is pre-alpha but what concerns me about the in game pics so far;

Why are the nobori so small?
Where are the cavalry banners?
Will Daimyo/Generals/Hero units have Uma-jirushi?
Will samurai unit officers (kumigashira) be unique for each clan? this will help alleviate the clone army look since units will be shared by the various clans.


Full sized Nobori

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Other Types of Banners


Uma-jirushi - These were greater (O Uma Jirushi) and lesser (ko-uma-jirushi) banners that appeared on the battlefield during the Sengoku period. These banners come in the shape of bells, gongs, umbrellas, large flags, and streamers. Some of the three dimensional uma-jirushi look wicked.

Sashimono - These were the flags that were usually fitted on the back of samurai and ashigaru.

I really hope CA adds these other types of banners to the game since we only have 40 or so units. We need these types of units cosmetics otherwise the units just look so generic. Being a former table top gamer I can't fathom the lack of detail CA has given to unit commands in the past games although NTW was a step in the right direction. Now in the list below this is how I would imagine/hope unit commands (officers, banners, and musicians) look like in the finished product

Daimyo
Faction Leader - Would be the officer of this unit and would have a unique model.
Greater Standard Bearer - A Hata Sashi (flag carrier) that carries the ō-uma-jirushi.
Lesser Standard Bearer - A Hata Sashi (flag carrier) that carries the ko-uma-jirushi standard.
Regular Standard Bearer - This flag carrier would carry the standard nobori with the faction mon (icon).
Musician - carrying the horagai (the conch shell horn)

Example : Tokugawa Ieyasu had a white nobori, ō-uma-jirushi of a fan, and a ko-uma-jirushi of the boar's eye.

Hatamoto Horse Guards and Foot Guards
Kumigashira - This would be the samurai officer that wears a simple kimono tabard over his armor to distinguish him from the other samurai.
Lesser Standard Bearer - A Hata Sashi (flag carrier) that carries the ko-uma-jirushi standard.
Regular Standard Bearer - This flag carrier would carry the standard nobori with the faction mon (icon).
Musician - carrying the horagai (the conch shell horn)

Hero Units - Heroes should have unique sashimono.
Hero - This will be the unique character/officer of the unit.
Lesser Standard Bearer - A Hata Sashi (flag carrier) that carries the ko-uma-jirushi standard. Possibly a unique one that represents the hero.
Regular Standard Bearer - This flag carrier would carry the standard nobori with the faction mon (icon).
Musician - carrying the horagai (the conch shell horn)

Example: Sakai Tadatsugu had a three dimensional sashimono of a skull.

Samurai Units - for the various samurai units
Kumigashira - This would be the samurai officer that wears a simple kimono tabard over his armor to distinguish him from the other samurai.
Regular Standard Bearer - This flag carrier would carry the standard nobori with the faction mon (icon).
Musician - carrying the horagai (the conch shell horn)

Note: Cavalry units could have a nobori or a square banner.

Ashigaru Units
Kumigashira - This would be the samurai officer that wears a simple kimono tabard over his armor to distinguish him from the other troops.
Regular Standard Bearer - This flag carrier would carry the standard nobori with the faction mon (icon).
Musician - carrying the horagai (the conch shell horn)

A nice view of what a mixture of the banners would look like on the battlefield.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kumigashira (samurai officer) wearing simple kimono tabards.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Square Cavalry Banner.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Katsumoto]

Definitely, all the various banners and flags are what made the samurai battlefield so unique and colourful.

[Amorphos]

They didn’t look right in the images, but I presume they will eventually be put in. rome probably shouldn’t have had banners at all so I think CA must like them.

I also hope that there will be banner carriers rather than just having banners hanging in the air not being held by anyone, perhaps they are still making such men for the units and that’s why we don’t see them.

[Nizam]

PRE-ALPHA guys easy

[KDK]

PRE-ALPHA guys easy

[Kinjo]

I'm aware the game is pre-alpha alls I'm saying since there is only 40 or so units I would like to see more focus on the units officers, standard bearers, and musicians to make them faction specific. From the pics we have so far the units look a little generic and by improving the look of the unit command the units won't look so bland. I can understand that you can only do so much with the units since they mostly had the same armor but with the unit commands you could add more diversity between the factions. For example:

Samurai officers - Each faction could have a kumigashira (unit officer) that looks unique to that faction and wears a jin-haori. For example the Oda clan's unit officers might wear a gold jin-haori while the Shimazu clan's kumigashira might wear a green jin-haori. The kumigashira's armor could also vary from faction to faction.

Standard bearers - The more the merrier some units should have multiple standard bearers. For example a Daimyo unit might have three standards in the unit. The banners would be a faction banner and a greater and lesser uma-jirushi. The uma-jirushi could also vary from faction to faction.

With the limited amount of units that are in the game I think CA should go all out with the unit commands to add as much variation as possible so when looking at a unit of Shimazu Samurai you have a command unit that looks very different to a unit of Oda Samurai as far as officers go.

Couple of images with lots of banners.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[bangell99]

Perhaps a tad too pedantic.

[Katsumoto]

As far as I'm aware the jinbaori wasn't actually worn into battle; it was more a ceremonial dress worn in camp or during the march or other important events since I presume it would be inconvenient to fight with. I really doubt every captain would have on too; most jinbaori were worn by commanders and taisho and above.

[Kinjo]

What are these kumigashira wearing then if the jinbaori is the more ceremonial version of the kimono vest?


I'm probably using the wrong term, maybe jin-haori is the simple kimono tabards worn over their armor to distinguish the captain from the other samurai/troops that use similar armor.

[Juggernaut]

Jinbaori literally means a "battle array Haori"; it had the purpose to keep warm and also to signify your presence on the battlefield. But I'm pretty sure they were worn only by high ranking officers, and not by every captain. Reiksmarshal, do you know what movie that photo is from?

[Katsumoto]

It's from a BBC documentary called Heroes and Villains: The Shogun. Pretty high production values too, if a little inaccurate history wise (whole army has same colour banners etc.)

[cpdwane]

It's from a BBC documentary called Heroes and Villains: The Shogun. Pretty high production values too, if a little inaccurate history wise (whole army has same colour banners etc.)

Ah yes. That was a good series. I wish they'd make another like it.

[General_Meevious]

I think the much higher banners would do a lot for the grandeur of massed combat; they sort of define epic artwork of the era, so it would definitely be nice to see them appropriately formidable. It is indeed surprising to see them somewhat diminished in light of the enormous icons of TW past.

[Shogun17]

only that to move through the gate

flags, standards,... http://www.forums.samurai-archives.c...er=asc&start=0

[Swagger]

currently shogun 2 has very small banners


but can you imagine, lets say in a siege

a samurai climbing a ladder with a 10 meter high wood stick with a banner wouldn't be much practical..

[Kinjo]

I think the much higher banners would do a lot for the grandeur of massed combat; they sort of define epic artwork of the era, so it would definitely be nice to see them appropriately formidable. It is indeed surprising to see them somewhat diminished in light of the enormous icons of TW past.

Not to mention the three dimensional standards (Uma-jirushi) that are so iconic of this period.





Tokugawa Ieyasu's standards

only that to move through the gate

flags, standards,... http://www.forums.samurai-archives.c...er=asc&start=0

Well they could always have them lean the standard backwards as they walk through the gate house.

currently shogun 2 has very small banners


but can you imagine, lets say in a siege

a samurai climbing a ladder with a 10 meter high wood stick with a banner wouldn't be much practical..

I wouldn't worry about that the Japanese sucked at siege warfare at least until after the invasion of Korea. From the sound of it the gates of the castles will be open during sieges so you won't have to go over the walls.

[Swagger]

From the sound of it the gates of the castles will be open during sieges so you won't have to go over the walls.

WHY?

[Kinjo]

WHY?

To utilize the murder holes, mazes, and choke points of the castle. This was also mentioned in a couple interviews with the devs.

[General_Meevious]

a samurai climbing a ladder with a 10 meter high wood stick with a banner wouldn't be much practical..

Even with the current size it would be impractical; they'll have to work around it and doubtlessly the solution will apply to larger standards too!

[Swagger]

To utilize the murder holes, mazes, and choke points of the castle. This was also mentioned in a couple interviews with the devs.

but still, no general leaves his fortress gates opened...


i hope CA doesnt makes that, i want to assault castles!