Second Age : Total War | For ME2TW Kingdoms Expansion

[Agamemnon]

I agree with all of that except the following:

1. There was no Atlantis
2. German Jews!? How!?

[Col. Tartleton]

I agree with all of that except the following:

1. There was no Atlantis
2. German Jews!? How!?

Well there may have been Atlantis. We generally assume there wasn't (but I won't get into my idea about that topic). Anyhow I'm talking in a literary sense that's who the Numenoreans are based on. Numenor's fall is also very Roman though. The Second Age is basically about the Romans and Germanic Peoples battling against the invading Huns. Thus leading to the middle ages we have in the Third Age.

The isolationist secretive practices of the Dwarfs and their fallen kingdom and diaspora situation is basically an allusion to the plight of the Jews in the ancient and medieval times. They are considered great artisans and jewelers. They all wear beards (male and female) are stunted and short and ugly by the Elven and Mannish eyes but not quite to the point of being monstrous like orcs.

What happened is Tolkien started out with Dwarves as villainous goblins (because the Dvergar in Norse myths were Barrow Wight types and were similiar to Draugr (Drow) and generally all manners of dwarves, and elves, fairies, and goblins have been unsavory) but he later decided to turn them more into more pleasant characters. However you can see the remnant of the original idea quite clearly with the "Petty Dwarfs" which were hunted like animals to the point of extinction by the Elves when they realized they were people. Artistically they're more like Tomtes with their earth tone garb, hoods, axes, and small stature blended with a touch of stereotypes of German Jews to create their distinctive look. Besides I never got the Scottish connection. Khazdul sounds more guttural and phlegmy like German or Semitic then Gaelic.

Anyhow on point. The Elves are actually the craftsman types from Norse myth. The Noldor (Gnomes) are craftsmen who create the great magical artifacts in the traditional Norse role. They're dark haired and eyed (Elrond) which equate to the "Dark" Elves. The Light Elves are the Vanyar who are golden haired and blue eyed and lived with the Gods (like the "Light" Elves in Norse myth). The Teleri had black and silver hair, pale skin, and were the last to come thus rounding out the Elves with "Black" Elves. Legolas would be from this camp. Galadriel and Celeborn (Elrond's father in law) were actually Noldor who lived among the Teleri.

So remember kids, the Elves aren't all blond.

Hopefully I'm more helpful then a pain.

[Agamemnon]

I know about the elves in Norse myth, but I still think the Dwarves, at least as they are in LotR, are more Scottish than semetic, since they are almost identical in attitude, looks (especially), and some weaponry (axes instead of Claymors, but Scots used both). Also, thank you for clarifying about Numenor, now I agree.

[Col. Tartleton]

I know about the elves in Norse myth, but I still think the Dwarves, at least as they are in LotR, are more Scottish than semetic, since they are almost identical in attitude, looks (especially), and some weaponry (axes instead of Claymors, but Scots used both). Also, thank you for clarifying about Numenor, now I agree.

I see the 7 Clans as being more like the 12 Jewish Tribes then the Scottish Clans. There is a Scottish influence but I think its limited. I'd see the Elves as being much more Scottish. Gallowglasses carry longswords, bows, and high helms with mail. That's how I envision the Noldor. Beautiful suits of armor with gleaming longswords and high helms. Sort of like the High Elves in Warhammer.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...r/bf70a125.jpg

http://wire.ggl.com/wp/wp-content/up...r_t5colorw.jpg

Other then the ridiculous shoulder armor that's basically how I imagine the Noldor to look although perhaps with a less bright look to them seeing as they're a rather grim bunch.

[Agamemnon]

That is how I see them, too, but not how I see Gallowglasses. Also, the elves need scimitars, or something a bit more "natural" or "fluid", like a falchion.

[Col. Tartleton]

Well Galloglasses are pretty similar to Norman Knights in terms of arms albeit with a larger sword and a longbow which are both pretty Elven. The two handed ax was pretty common, but that strikes me as being a financial thing. I'm sure they preferred a longsword to a battle ax but one was much cheaper. I see elven swords as being longer and thinner like a zweihander with a shorter chopping sidearm. Sort of like how landsknecht had his Zweihander and his Katzbalger or a Highlander had his Claymore and his Dirk. They can keep the enemy at bay with a longsword in formation or in a one on one or a skirmish they may find it easier to holster their longsword and fight with something closer in with a cutting blade. You can't really slit someone's throat from behind with a two handed sword.

[Agamemnon]

Well, that makes sense, but a longsword really doesn't fit the "tolkien" elf.

[Col. Tartleton]

Well, that makes sense, but a longsword really doesn't fit the "tolkien" elf.

Yeah its more a Numenor trait... Hmm. Scrap that but they can consider the rest.

[Beorn]

Τhe "Tolkien" Elves are mentioned fighting with longsword, not katanas like PJ's Elves.

Also, Numenore has many parallels with Atlantis. In Adunaic, the language of Numenore, and the language of the people of Gondor and Arnor afterwards it was called "Atalante", the "Befallen" IIRC

[Hrobatos]

while Gondor and Arnor are conception East and West Roman Empires

and Elves had equipment and architecture like Western Europe

long swords, axes, spears, shields, long helms

no katana's, scimitars, sabres, lamelar armor and that crap

[Col. Tartleton]

But the Orcs did

[Chanyu]

nearly everyone used chainmail

[matija191]

Τhe "Tolkien" Elves are mentioned fighting with longsword, not katanas like PJ's Elves.

dont forget elven phalanxes and axes

[matija191]

while Gondor and Arnor are conception East and West Roman Empires

and Elves had equipment and architecture like Western Europe

long swords, axes, spears, shields, long helms

no katana's, scimitars, sabres, lamelar armor and that crap

roman empires? what about longobowmans in Isildur company?and my little advice: for Druedains you should go fo archery faction in combination with powerfull stone warriors,for elves phalanxes with strong archers

[Agamemnon]

Phalanxes!? I read LotR and The Hobbit (and I am trying to find the others), and there were hardly any spears, let alone a single phalanx! There aren't in the movies, either. Also, it is meant to be symbolic. The Western empire fell because of bad leadership and invading hordes. The eastern empire, however, survived much longer. That is the symbolism. And what do you mean by "stone warriors"? Trolls, stone people, drug addicts, what?

[matija191]

Phalanxes!? I read LotR and The Hobbit (and I am trying to find the others), and there were hardly any spears, let alone a single phalanx! There aren't in the movies, either. Also, it is meant to be symbolic. The Western empire fell because of bad leadership and invading hordes. The eastern empire, however, survived much longer. That is the symbolism. And what do you mean by "stone warriors"? Trolls, stone people, drug addicts, what?

well did you heard for phalanxe of Gondolin?

[Agamemnon]

No, I haven't read or heard about that. But one phalanx isn't enough to make an archer faction into Macedonians!

[Hrobatos]

Noldors are hardly an archer faction

matija could you quote Tolkien about Noldor spearmen fighting in phalanxe formation?

[Agamemnon]

He never said Noldor, he just said Elves! Be SPECIFIC!

[Hrobatos]

he said Gondolin, they are Noldors
and you can generalize that elves are archer faction, or that they all love woods or what ever