Divide and Conquer revisited

[Hero of the West]

I can say that the other way round: If it's called Men (...) of Eriador, the Dunedain would say: I don't need a faction for my self, I'll join Eriador!

true, well then the "Free folk of Eriador" since with folk is referred to inhabitants.. and the rangers aren't real inhabitants since they travel a lot through the deserted northern parts etc. and hobbits and men of bree are free folk cause the don't answer to anyone but their own leader..

of course ingame the rangers have settlements and are inhabitants of eriador but lorewise the name should be good then

[Eöl]

I haven't choosen these names. They were chosen a long time ago. That's why we changed and were planning on changing a few names. So I don't know the reasons behind these names, but I will tell you my personal opinion about them:

1. Shadow of Mordor Just Mordor is the commen name for this nation

Shadow of mordor gives another layer of lore to it imo. It adds something to the atmosphere of the game. The free people talked with fear about this shadow of mordor. Just like shadow of mirkwood and angmar

5. Haven's Of Umbar Pirates of Umbar, cause the people excist out of pirates and not haven's.

I agree this name isn't perfect, but pirates of umbar or corsairs of umbar won't do it either, because they have more than ships or fleets. Any other suggestions??

8. Enedwaith & Minhiriath Men of Enedwaith & Minhiraith

Will make the name to long and boring imo.

11. Northern Dunedain Rangers Dunedain rangers, you have no southern eastern or western.. so no need to call them northern.

VERY difficult. Will discuss this.

13. Green Valleys of Folyavuld (will probably be renamed) This is Dorwinion now i assume?

It is dorwinion, but the name will be longer than that.

15. Vale of Anduin Like 14 , Men of the Vale of Anduin

As allready pointed out: Men are only a part of the faction.

18. Men & Hobbits of Bree-land Men and Hobbits of Eriador

Seen the discussion and there is not a better solution to this name yet.

[Hero of the West]

18 and 15 i send newer ideas after my first post
13 i'm curious what will be the name of 13 or is that not clear?
8 i don't know much about the faction 8 it's pretty unknown i guess? it's difficult to think of another name
5, well you could make it warriors of Umbar, because they can fight on both land and water, and they are known for there warfare, not for being peacefull
1 I can get the idea about mordor but mostly in the book or game the people speak of .. "A shadow out of the east" or "Mordor" not a combination of the 2, off course it is possible

Cool that so many people are open for debate on this subject

[The Big Red 1]

Factions in 4.0

1. Shadow of Mordor 2. Shadow of Angmar 3. Haradrim Tribes Southron Tribes is the most Lore-Correct, Haradrim was a Gondorian name. 4. Easterlings of Rhun If we want lore correct here, it would be "Easterling Clans" 5. Haven's Of Umbar Corsairs of Umbar is the only correct-lore term as far as I can tell. I Don't mind the use of Haven's, as there are pirate Haven's. 6. Orcs Of The Misty Mountains 7. Shadow Of Mirkwood Evil of Mirkwood, or Darkness of Dol Guldur. I think we have too many shadows. 8. Enedwaith & Minhiriath 9. Kingdom Of Gondor 10. Principality Of Dol Amroth 11. Northern Dunedain Rangers just change to "Northern Dunedain" Or "Dunedain of Evendim" 12. Kingdom Of Rohan 13. Green Valleys of Folyavuld (will probably be renamed) 14. Wild Men of Dunland Chiefdom of Dunland 15. Vale of Anduin 16. Orthanc Isengard 17. Lake-men Kingdoms, Dale & Esgaroth Men of Celduin, or Kingdom of Dale 18. Men & Hobbits of Bree-land Free-Folk of Eriador (As Suggested Earlier) 19. Dwarves of the Iron Hills 20. Dwarves of the Blue Mountains 21. Longbeards of Khazad Dum Or just Khazad Dum. DO NOT USE MORIA. 22. Haven of Rivendell House of Imladris, House of the Half-Elven, or just Elves of Imladris 23. Silvan Elves of Eryn Lasgalen 24. Havens of Lindon Keep this. 25. Silvan Elves of Lórien 26. Ents of Fangorn (AI Defensive) 27. Variags of Khand (Emergent Aggressive) 28. White Council 29. Arnor Kingdom of Arnor 30. Bandits Possible rebel factions (allready one decided, though we keep that one secret for now ) : Rebel factions are rebels that have certain units. They have their own color on the map. They have their own banners. They even can behave aggresive. They just can't expand and are not playable. There is a limit of 6. 1. Gundabad 2. Druedain 3. Nurn (very small chance) 4. ........ (suggestions are allways welcome)

Those are the only possible changes I think could be made.

[The Big Red 1]

I agree this name isn't perfect, but pirates of umbar or corsairs of umbar won't do it either, because they have more than ships or fleets. Any other suggestions??

Well, the men of that region were known as Corsairs. It doesn't matter if they have more than just ships. (Because they did) Orcs of the Misty Mountains are Orcs...but they have Cave Trolls? The people who resided in Umbar were the Corsairs, mixed with Local Haradrim. This didn't mean that they couldn't fight on land, who said all Corsairs did was fight on sea? All I'm saying is the term "Corsair" doesn't mean they only have ships/fight on sea. It's just a name for the people in that region.

I don't know, the only name I could possibly see being lore appropriate would be Corsairs of Umbar.

[TIDM2]

Well, the men of that region were known as Corsairs. It doesn't matter if they have more than just ships. (Because they did) Orcs of the Misty Mountains are Orcs...but they have Cave Trolls? The people who resided in Umbar were the Corsairs, mixed with Local Haradrim. This didn't mean that they couldn't fight on land, who said all Corsairs did was fight on sea? All I'm saying is the term "Corsair" doesn't mean they only have ships/fight on sea. It's just a name for the people in that region.

I don't know, the only name I could possibly see being lore appropriate would be Corsairs of Umbar.

Well, not all the people who are part of the lands of Umbar are pirates right? Corsairs are basically pirates. The corsairs sailed around Gondors coasts and pillaged, etc. But there still where civilians and all that who lived under Umbar rule. Not everyone there could be called a Corsair, or pirate. So the military force of Umbar is made out of Corsairs, but I don't think that term "Corsair" could apply to every person in the region. As some people had to be common townsfolk and whatnot. So therefore, I don't think that Corsairs of Umbar would be an appropriate name. Not every single person living there sailed around and pillaged stuff.

I like all your other ideas though.

[Squeaks]

The problem here is that we're trying to come up with evocative names...so classic use of descriptive nouns rather than men of... (this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, because it'a actually a perfectly reasonable idea)

You see, I like Horse-Lords of Rohan, as an example. But they don't often make perfect sense if looked at critically, which they will be. I'm sure this is up for plenty more discussion and I love that it's being doneded.

3. Haradrim Tribes Southron Tribes is the most Lore-Correct, Haradrim was a Gondorian name.

Yes....House of the Black Serpent would be good too, but Haradrim is such a nice sounding name!!

4. Easterlings of Rhun If we want lore correct here, it would be "Easterling Clans"

Yes, but we need to make sure that peeps who have only seen bits and pieces of Lore understand and relate to the nation you're presenting....Rhun gives at least some lore-specific impact.

5. Haven's Of Umbar Corsairs of Umbar is the only correct-lore term as far as I can tell. I Don't mind the use of Haven's, as there are pirate Haven's.

It would be a haven to the corsairs though If you is playing dem then they would call it their Haven...

17. Lake-men Kingdoms, Dale & Esgaroth Men of Celduin, or Kingdom of Dale

This will have to change....need to keep Dale in there for player identity reasons...lovely suggestions...

DO NOT USE MORIA.

The Black Pit would be a bit un-dwarvey....or Dwarrowdelf either.

16. Orthanc Isengard

We've had this discussion....and there IS no alternative to Isengard

"Dunedain of Evendim"

Love it (should we keep Northern in though....points out where they are to peeps that don't know where evendim is?)

7. Shadow Of Mirkwood Evil of Mirkwood, or Darkness of Dol Guldur. I think we have too many shadows.

Could use the Silvan name - Taur-nu-Fuin - I would have suggested this.

Big Red - you get a Squeaky-star for excellent suggestions - you got my brain working on this, and that's unusual.

Thanks to everyone else too...well thought and worthy conversation...v pleased with it

Yours Sincerely,

Squeak

[jakev2]

Some possible names:

The Corruption of Mirkwood (maybe sounds too much like an event)
The Curse of Mirkwood
The Dark Fortress of Dol-Goldur
The Black Heart of Mirkwood
The Citadel of Malice
The Darkness of Taur-nu-Fuin

I don't know if any of them are good, but i might as well try

[Squeaks]

Some possible names:

The Corruption of Mirkwood (maybe sounds too much like an event)
The Curse of Mirkwood
The Dark Fortress of Dol-Goldur
The Black Heart of Mirkwood
The Citadel of Malice
The Darkness of Taur-nu-Fuin

I don't know if any of them are good, but i might as well try

They're ALL little spankers Taters....it's a darned difficult one to pin down. No-one can offer bad ideas, I don't think...it's always good to hear them all.

Are you exams finished soon? We need to chat when they are....

[jakev2]

Ye-ha, last one tomorrow

[Makrell]

is it Lore correctly that there goes a long tunnel from Moria to high pass, and shouldnt rather goblin town guard the entrance to the caves of the misty mountains.

[Squeaks]

is it Lore correctly that there goes a long tunnel from Moria to high pass, and shouldnt rather goblin town guard the entrance to the caves of the misty mountains.

In the dwarf-orc war they fought in tunnels beneath the earth, but other than that not 100% sure

[JorisofHolland]

In the dwarf-orc war they fought in tunnels beneath the earth, but other than that not 100% sure

In The Hobbit, Tolkien mentions that the Orcs 'ran through tunnels to other colonies, mustering a large army'. So I guess there is a tunnel.

[Squeaks]

In The Hobbit, Tolkien mentions that the Orcs 'ran through tunnels to other colonies, mustering a large army'. So I guess there is a tunnel.

Thanks Joris!

[Bela]

is it Lore correctly that there goes a long tunnel from Moria to high pass, and shouldnt rather goblin town guard the entrance to the caves of the misty mountains.

There had to be one. As the Goblin Town settlement represents the Orc fort on the High Pass on the campaign map, and the road connecting Goblin Town and Mountain Fort with Khazad-dum/Moria represents the tunnels themselves (as it is impossible to create tunnels in Medieval II as long as I know). So, in my point of view the tunnels are shown on the campaign map as a road.

But if we have a look at it lore-wise, there had to be a tunnel-system from Carn-dum to Gundabad and Khazad-dum in the ancient times, as these all were part of the ancient dwarf kingdom and several unpassable reefs and peaks were dividing them (and I don't really think that dwarves were climbing the mountains to reach their other settlements).

Answering your question, Goblin Town is on its relevant place, I think as (based on the Hobbit and on the Wikipedia) Bilbo and his companions were captured in Goblin Town, which one is situated on the lower part of the High Pass.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In the Second Age the High Pass was used by the army of Gil-galad and Elendil when they marched to Mordor in the War of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. After this war Isildur was slain by Orcs watching the way towards the pass.
During the later Third Age the Pass became dangerous again because of the Orcs, only with the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, which nearly wiped out all Orcs of the mountains, did it become safe again. Nevertheless by the time of the Quest of Erebor the goblins of Goblin Town had burrowed their way back to it, and Bilbo Baggins and the Dwarves of Thorin Oakenshield were captured.

So, Goblin Town had to be on the eastern part of the High Pass, just as it is on the campaign map. The settlement I dislike is Mountain Fort, but the whole Khazad-dum area will be completely redone in DaC 4.0, so you will see that we tried to give it as much importance as it has in Middle Earth.

[Makrell]

There had to be one. As the Goblin Town settlement represents the Orc fort on the High Pass on the campaign map, and the road connecting Goblin Town and Mountain Fort with Khazad-dum/Moria represents the tunnels themselves (as it is impossible to create tunnels in Medieval II as long as I know). So, in my point of view the tunnels are shown on the campaign map as a road.

But if we have a look at it lore-wise, there had to be a tunnel-system from Carn-dum to Gundabad and Khazad-dum in the ancient times, as these all were part of the ancient dwarf kingdom and several unpassable reefs and peaks were dividing them (and I don't really think that dwarves were climbing the mountains to reach their other settlements).

Answering your question, Goblin Town is on its relevant place, I think as (based on the Hobbit and on the Wikipedia) Bilbo and his companions were captured in Goblin Town, which one is situated on the lower part of the High Pass.

Shouldnt it rather be blocking the entrance to the tunnels, sort of like a gate into the tunnels and not an unguarded entrance. If that is a problem you could place a fort like in Western Moria.

[jakev2]

Squeaks im completely done now! So whatever it was you wanted to talk to me about, im now free to chat!

[Squeaks]

Okay Taters, will PM you tomorrow!

[Squeaks]

This just a thought, to ask your opinions....we're decided on this, buuuuuut...

What nations do you think need a larger roster? How many different troop-types are ideal for you? Would you like more evocative names than just '[faction] soldiers] or [faction] militia? What nations are complete in your eyes?

Big questions, but I'd just like to see and answer to this....such a subjective thingamajig that's v important to DaC...

[Makrell]

I would say that Northern dunedain rangers, Umbar, enedwaith and minihirath and men and hobbits of Bree land need a bigger rooster. Also the dwarf and elven factions need more specific roosters, so not all of them have the same units. Mercenarys should also be worked with, like all the good factions should be able to recruit rohan riders dwarfen mercs, elvish troops and freed slaves, possibly also some of the evil men factions units such as good easterling, good Haradrim, and dunlendoings if they own the land were they are availeble, only if they reclaim from an evil faction not if they conquered it. The evil factions should also be able to recruit semi good mercs, like Dwarwen rebels Black numenorian riding on rohan horses and bandits of bree, gondor and Rohan.