Selling Modding Tools / modding ability by DLC or for extra money as special edition inside at release?

[♔Mandelus♔]

We made a bunch of threads, polls and petition's about full modding in ETW and NTW with 1.000 posts and the majority clear voted. But:
The only time when CA answered about the question of modding support official was in German PC Games 2/2010 on the question of a Moderator of the German TW-Zone (member Hinkel, herein TWC same name) about Modding in term of:

"We (Creative Assembly) have not the the time and resources to develop customer modding tools, because it will be about 3 months to build some. And our own tools we don't give, because they are our tools!"

Well any demand to give their own tools was seriously not made anytime, but if resources + time are the reason, then it means at least financial reasons, because both cost money, eh?
So if this is true and it is quite possible that it is true, then I must seriously ask for making and selling them as DLC or to give them as Special Edition at release to the community.

Yes, I know that this proposal and thing is at many people unpopular and many will become angry of even run amok when CA will do so! Only the term "DLC" is for some like a "red cloth in the bulls eye" and if CA will sell modding tools as DLC, .... omg!
Yes, it will be making something to sell what was earlier for free or even a course to have for free and selling this now for money will be rated as "money eyed" from CA by many people!

In short: The first reaction will be this because it is not for free, which should be a course!

But to be honest guys, times and conditions change and let me explain it:
Even not being pleased with the situation when have to pay for it, we all know the current situation in ETW and NTW which will be without any doubt most probably the same situation again with Shogun 2!
To hope sometime there will be all the tools out of the community (and there are quite good people working on it!) is a little bit like waiting for a miracle and miracles rarely happen and since 1 year we are not realy getting further in this matter!
Also, will these smart guys in the community work on it further of whatever reason if becoming frustrated?

So thinking about the point that it is quite true that financial reasons are the point why CA will not make some, it will be in my eyes much better to make it this way to sell them, also because on other way it will most probably not happen anytime and the restricted modding will be the normality, what we will never want. So "bite the bullet" is the only solution or we wait for ever pointless about a change, because to wait and to hope everything will be fine by themself is totally wrong!

Also, all these guys here in TWC for whom modding is unimportant / lesser important got not hurt if this solutution will be made. They must not buy it if not intrested in it and can still play Vanilla as they want.

Finally @ Creative Assembly:
This solution, if accepted by a majority, will give YOU the option to put resources and time to develop the tools / possibilities right now and to bring them at release or (really!) short after release if the time table is to close. With this solution you have the option to make them with minimum covering the cost's!
No matter if put inside as a special edition or sold later as DLC, you can see how important it is really to give full modding possibilitiy again to the people, only by looking with financial eye on the sell numbers!

Also, to give modding possibilities is never a competition to the game itself! It does not matter if playing the game in Vanilla or with Mods or making Mods, the game must be sold at first always ... and what then happend after it does not hurt you anywhere!
Also the DLC things as unit addons or mini campaigns will not be hurted. That is is not allowed to unlock these stuff by modding = hands off is clear! You are thinking in your marketing strategy more and more about MP area and it is fact, that only your stuff sold by DLC is full compatibil in MP, but nothing what Modders do with Vanilla in this matter )only same Mod + same Mod).

Finally: It must be clear that these tools / given abilities should never be a pointless modding toy and must be a serious thing. That must be clear too!

Greetings
Mandelus

[ediko]

Sorry no. Awful idea TBH. People already use their free time and make mods for *free*. Why should we pay to SEGA/CA for that? They would already get their profit from selling the games and if great mods would come out=more copies sold. Simple as that. I'm not a modder myself so I can't say this is how you modders feel. But I personally would be really, really pissed. And this not enough time resources is really not believable to me. Why do other companies make games moddable? Well simple it makes those games worth buying. Look at GTA4 for example. R* released it on consoles only. They got their profit, then they ported it to PC and you know what? Those guys that had it on consoles bought it for PC BECAUSE of the mods. And this is not the only example. More mods=more sales. DLC's cost money not mods. So no I would not pay for it!

[♔Mandelus♔]

Sorry no. Awful idea TBH. People already use their free time and make mods for *free*. Why should we pay to SEGA/CA for that? They would already get their profit from selling the games and if great mods would come out=more copies sold. Simple as that. I'm not a modder myself so I can't say this is how you modders feel. But I personally would be really, really pissed. And this not enough time resources is really not believable to me. Why do other companies make games moddable? Well simple it makes those games worth buying. Look at GTA4 for example. R* released it on consoles only. They got their profit, then they ported it to PC and you know what? Those guys that had it on consoles bought it for PC BECAUSE of the mods. And this is not the only example. More mods=more sales. DLC's cost money not mods. So no I would not pay for it!

A noteable opinion.... but if you take a look on the current situation and that it is very unlikely that ever something will change at this if not another solution will be found, found and being accepted by CA?

The possibilities are still restricted, will be most probably at Sgogun 2 again and CA told in conclusion they will never make tools out of financial reasons and the community can't make them really and all hate, anger, petitions and so on until now are, sorry to say, for the trash.
GTA4 and al other games are a bad example, because why? It was on PC still full modable from the beginning, eh?
Are ETW and NTW too?

@ Brig
The term "tools" is a little bit irritating always, because it is the demand to open the closed parts / to get access to them, for example the area of campaign map. So having this access in a special edition or as DLC means at least the possibilitiy to do what modders want to do ....
Technical it is possible to unlock these areas only with having bought as until now with the DLC / Specuial Force stuff ....

[Odinarius]

I support this initiative. I`d pay for such a package (though only if it was superior to what we currently have... community has been amazing in providing our own tools).

[Alex Suvorov]

Yes. Buy them . And then perhaps you will have to buy the mods as well.
If we have to compensate CA for creating tools then we might have to compensate modders for their time and hard work AND the cost of the tools.
And then perhaps we ll have to compensate the site that hosts the mods. And the download manager and.....
Commercialization. Most probably it will work, but we re gonna miss the good ol' times...

[MaximiIian]

Yeah, I'd support moddability being a special edition feature. It'd increase sales of a special edition, and for those of us who don't care about mods, we'll get the regular version. All sides would be satisfied to some degree.

[♔Mandelus♔]

One argument I got from a friend by PN in TWZ before this post / poll here:

Such a Special Edition or DLC will be much more have sense as some ridiculous units to buy ...

[Hobbes]

Paying? I have never downloaded a DLC for any game. Mods are supposed to be free. No.

[gaius_caesar]

just sell it as part of a special edition... because some of us doesn't have the ability to buy DLC's but just buy the games from stores...

[DARTH VADER]

It would be a breakthrough. Modders to pay the developers than developers to pay and support commercial big mods (see other games).
Of course I do not agree.

[PrayForPlagues]

honestly, I'm not sure if I'll even get shogun since the lack of modibility in both empire and napoleon have kinda turned me off from the series...

[gaius_caesar]

honestly, I'm not sure if I'll even get shogun since the lack of modibility in both empire and napoleon have kinda turned me off from the series...

agreed...

[TheJian]

"We (Creative Assembly) have not the the time and resources to develop customer modding tools, because it will be about 3 months to build some. And our own tools we don't give, because they are our tools!"

Says it all!!! If not ETW,and NTW should tell you something. What part dont you get.

[♔Mandelus♔]

In principle I will say thay sould be free and it must be a free thing to have a full modding possibilitiy ....

BUT:
Looking of the named financial reason from CA why not given and looking on the hopeless situation with tools out of the community as breakthrough ... I will say yes, bring them as Special Edition )or as 2. possibility when this not possible as DLC).
It willbe better than to have the current and in my eyes not other changeable situation. Not good and I'm not pleased, but sometimes in life we have the poll between plague and Cholera ...

[♔hammeredalways♔]

actually there are variant principles in place here, the fact that ETW (and NTW to a lesser extent) has tremendous potential some of which has been realised by the Modding Community but sady to a degree probably makes initial reaction adverse.

However that they will like re-write much of the code (as I believe the programmer had left) for the Shogun 2 game will make the ETW/NTW engine I assume largely redundant, and if this would in turn allow us to extend some of the modding options beyond what are available at present then I would be in favour, though I expect the given CA's 3 month statement cost may be prohibitive as the modders as opposed to the the tinkerers are actually fewer in number

[AnthoniusII]

I choosed the 3rd option(free tools).
I spoke few days ago with a game sell man in greece.
The companies that sell the games sell in lower prices but still sell older games of TW series thanks to the modding attempts and their publicity.
Players that did not buy Rome TW for example now looking for stock games because they saw a mod somewhere in a magasine or by accident in the internet.
Some in CA might think:
If an old game such Rome remains still in use thanks to modding then our new games wont find the needed customers for them.
That logic might have a sence but...
New players are adding every day because kids grow up.
The chance that a new game will be suported by modding projects will lead the selling companies to buy more copies and create a minor stock for future sells. That way CA will receive cash from the start for each new game that is so needed to suport the company and its future projects.
So allowing modding in the games CA creates a standard pool of customers and secures that its games will remain in the higher places of sell demands untill a new product of the company will apear. In the hard times we all coming through it is crusial not only to find new customers but also keep those you all ready have. And obiusly you wont keep those customers by the original product only.
Modding also gives ideas and solutions for the games issues to CA free because the mods are still CA's property.

[♔Mandelus♔]

I choosed the 3rd option(free tools).
I spoke few days ago with a game sell man in greece.
The companies that sell the games sell in lower prices but still sell older games of TW series thanks to the modding attempts and their publicity.
Players that did not buy Rome TW for example now looking for stock games because they saw a mod somewhere in a magasine or by accident in the internet.
Some in CA might think:
If an old game such Rome remains still in use thanks to modding then our new games wont find the needed customers for them.
That logic might have a sence but...
New players are adding every day because kids grow up.
The chance that a new game will be suported by modding projects will lead the selling companies to buy more copies and create a minor stock for future sells. That way CA will receive cash from the start for each new game that is so needed to suport the company and its future projects.
So allowing modding in the games CA creates a standard pool of customers and secures that its games will remain in the higher places of sell demands untill a new product of the company will apear. In the hard times we all coming through it is crusial not only to find new customers but also keep those you all ready have. And obiusly you wont keep those customers by the original product only.
Modding also gives ideas and solutions for the games issues to CA free because the mods are still CA's property.

Nice and good arguments, also very true ... BUT:
This was the situation before ETW too and CA changed it and until now they doesn't rechange it by ignoring all petitions, boycotts, threads and written anger ....
So in conclusion, as right as you are and I really hope it will with Shogun 2 again asit was in the past, my hopes are tending to "0" that it will be.
So in conclusion we made more than enough "noise" about modding I think, being always ignored with silence as answer and least we have in my eyes only the choice between

a) making pointless further noise, petitions, boycotts etc. which were not listen or change something
b) agreeing unpleased with an unpopular solution to change it

[MorganH.]

Mods are allready extending (older)TW games's lifespans and were/are convincing neutral players to buy certain TW games in order to play certain mods,so in that regard CA is allready making money from it !
Selling tools as DLC would be unacceptable so i voted No of course,But if CA decides to do that, i think theres no other option(for me at least ) then to go along with it as I will allways have the urge and needs to play Mods !

[AnthoniusII]

Again..let's supose that CA sell's the modding tools.
Let's also supose that do so in a very "logical" price.
Nothing can quarantee CA that exept one or two persons on the planet will buy those tools and upload them for free.
What CA could do is to contact the public sites that have host modding projects and give them the tools for free . Every moding team that will start a mod should be forced to accept that fact that what every new feature will develop in any issue, could be also used in CA's future use also for free and with no other obligations from CA's part.

A message "do you accept the terms of modding development" in every moder or moding team would give CA the legal right to use any kind of "material" (ideas,animations etc)that would feel it would help the company to improve allready existing projects or create new ones.
This could be an endless cycle of production that could lead CA to Shogun XI ,MXXTW etc...

[Violator]

Again..let's supose that CA sell's the modding tools.
Let's also supose that do so in a very "logical" price.
Nothing can quarantee CA that exept one or two persons on the planet will buy those tools and upload them for free.
What CA could do is to contact the public sites that have host modding projects and give them the tools for free . Every moding team that will start a mod should be forced to accept that fact that what every new feature will develop in any issue, could be also used in CA's future use also for free and with no other obligations from CA's part.

A message "do you accept the terms of modding development" in every moder or moding team would give CA the legal right to use any kind of "material" (ideas,animations etc)that would feel it would help the company to improve allready existing projects or create new ones.
This could be an endless cycle of production that could lead CA to Shogun XI ,MXXTW etc...

Interesting ideas here Anthonious... but my personal belief is that their goal is to stop providing moding tools, so if we have to choose between no moding tools or tools that we have to pay for then i would say let us pay...