Mercenaries?

[JackDionne]

Did the Japanese employ mercenaries from China or Korea or anywhere else for that matter?

[JackDionne]

That is an outstanding answer your time is much appreciated. Looking forward to reading more of your post.

Just a wild guess but I am betting you have been waiting for Shogun II for some time.

[GoodSmurfin]

Maybe European mercenaries may not be historically accurate though cause they mostly just sold guns.

[Ludicus]

Maybe European mercenaries may not be historically accurate though cause they mostly just sold guns.

Exactly.
Only spiritual mercenaries page 405, last lines
Foundations of the Portuguese empire, 1415-1580 - Resultado da pesquisa de livros do Google

[rekishiotaku]

Did the Japanese employ mercenaries from China or Korea or anywhere else for that matter?

No, but the some Asian countries used Japanese as mercenaries, particularly the Thai and other SE Asian countries in the 17th century.

For this game mercenaries will probably be "ronin", The Shimazu often used a group of arquebuse mercenaries from Kyushu known as the Saiga-shu.

Buddhist countries should be able to hire yamabushi (mountain warriors) or sohei (warrior monks), especially if the Ikkō-ikki aren't a faction, they could be represended this way. Christians should be able to hire Chirstian warriors as well. Although not historically acurate, maybe Christians can get Portuguese mercenaries in Nagasaki since the Portuguese considered it their land, and Portuguese mercenaries were very active in Africa and SE Asia at this time.

During the Imjin War between the Chinese, Koreans and the Japanese. The Japanese hired the Wakō Japanese pirates for both navel support, transportation, and also as raiders to stir up trouble in Korea.
On that note, if Korea is on the map, and I doubt it will be, it'd make sense that Korean mercenaries would be available.

And if Hokkaido and Okinawa are on the map, and god I hope they are, their people would aslo be used as mercenaries. The Ryukyu kingdom was invaded because they did not help send men to Korea. But if it was already under a clan's control (as it could be if you invade it in STW 2) then...

[Lord Dakier]

It would be a nice little gimmick to be able to go elsewhere in Asia maybe even Europe to aquire soldiers. Some tab which tells you who you can buy from other places and how long they'd take to arrive.

[rekishiotaku]

I had always though that the Wako were ethinically Japanese. But yesterday or so, someone posted that there's a new book about the Wako that claims they were Chinese. I'm trying to track that down for my own samurai battles website. Here's the wiki article about them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou

plus this at the samurai archives:
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Wako

Well the term Wa/Wo is the ancient name for Japan. Most wako were from Tsushima, which is why the Joseon invaded the island in 1389 and 1419.
The Stories of Japan in the History of Ming which states that only 3/7 of the wako were not Japanese, was written in the early 18th century well after the hight of Japanese piracy and during the period of Japanese isolation, so it only makes sense that there would not be many Japanese pirates since nearly all Japanese are not allowed to enter Japan after leaving.
During this period (the 16th century), I think it is safe to assume that most of the Wako are ethnically Japanese, although there could also be Chinese, Okinawan and even Javans serving on ships.

[RollingWave]

Well clearly the masterless samurai made up most of the mercenaries that were called Ronin. Some were excellent, and some lesser samurai. There's quite a bit of variance, and there's some samurai history available about what ronin were picked up by different clans, so Creative Arts could have some cool events where those Ronin of renown become available. We could have a base level of expertise. They certainly were veterans of conflicts, that's most likely how they became ronin.

100,000 ronin (!!!) fought with Toyotomi Hideyori at the Siege of Osaka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C5%8Dnin


I guess that they were pretty important there!

Dr. Stephen Turnbull considers the Ashigaru (page 16 Samurai Sourcebook) to be "virtual mercenaries". They were of peasant stock, and were paid to fight. Realize that 1/4-1/3 of the armies were Ashigaru. They were cheap spearmen, but had very poor morale.


It seems like Wako were employed as mercenaries, I think by Nobunaga, but these were ethnically Japanese people.

The Japanese were terribly xenophobic, and felt they were descended from the Sun God. Everyone else was inferior. Even when I looked through the Korean campaign, I saw no mention of even Korean conscripts to refill the Ashigaru. They must not have used them.

I don't think that there were any mercenaries of other than Japanese ethnicity. I quickly glanced through about a dozen books and the samurai archives site, and found no evidence of them.

-That is wrong, the samurais who fought at Osaka were technically Ronin because they were fighting against the Shogun , and for many of them probably did it against the will of their daiymo as well (though most just turned a blind eye against that) But they weren't Ronin in the sense of career unemployed guys.

-Ashigarus made up more than 1/3 -1/4 of the army, try the other way around, they made up 2/3 - 3/4 of the army. for example, according to the rules of Oda Nobunaga during his conquest stage, any landed Samurai should come to war with at least 4 minor Samurai (not including himself) and some 12 Ashigaru. obviously the numbers go up relative to the land the Samurai actually owns.

- It is not that the Japanese were against hiring foreign mercenary, it is the fact that there simply wasn't much avalible to them, the cost of hiring mercenary then tranferring them across the sea is horrifically unpractical at best.

I had always though that the Wako were ethinically Japanese. But yesterday or so, someone posted that there's a new book about the Wako that claims they were Chinese. I'm trying to track that down for my own samurai battles website. Here's the wiki article about them:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou

plus this at the samurai archives:
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Wako

There were different stages of Wako and it also depend on which region we're actually referring to. But since the most documented aspect was probably in China (and Korea.) then the reality was that a lot of them weren't Japanese. but the Japanese role were prominent especially in their fighting aspects.

The key rise of the Wako had very little to do with Japan, it had everything to do with China, aka the Ming dynasty's general sea ban in the early half of the dynasty. which destroyed many of it's own citizens lifehood on the coastal regions. Since their trades were no longer legal, they can only operate in illegal fashion. and once they step into that territory. they might as well take it as step further and add in real pirate activities as well.

Combined with Japan being the only significant area left out of the Ming's tributory trade system, it gave them a huge incentive to join the party and "help" out the plight of the Chinese coastal inhabitants.

The Japanese's key role was to provide the equipment and the fighting knowhows . the Chinese mostly lead the way in China with their local knowledge and operational skills. Some Koreans and residence of RyuKyu (modern day Okinawa) also joined in though their incentives weren't as strong. Japan also provided them a operation base and a place to trade over their goods once they "acquired" them (it wasn't always looting, most of the time what they were doing was in fact just normal commerce, but it was technically illegal in the Ming)

As the period grew it seem that the role of the Japanese diminished more and more, especially when it comes to leadership roles.

The last truely famous "Pirate" lord of this time was the Zheng family, aka Zheng Zhi Long and his son Zheng Chen Gong, they were accepted by the Ming who were in bad shape at the time, and could use any help they can get. the younger Zheng eventually sacked Taiwan from the Dutch and founded his own kingdom there in the name of the Ming. he is actually half Japanese though, as the elder Zheng married a Japanese lady.

[RollingWave]

As for the original question, yes there were mercenaries, even if you consider Ashigaru as just career soldiers.

For one thing, most Ninjas / Shinobes were in fact mercenaries. though many are kepted in personal service, numerous very notable groups were in fact independently operating groups that can choose their own employer, this include the most famous Ninja groups such as the Iga and Koga groups.

What in reality happen is that the Samurai's rule often does not reach some of the most remote village / areas . and these areas often form their own independent arm groups based on their specialty and offer them up for service. Ninjas are one of these aspects. since the Iga / Koga region despite being relatively near the heart of Japan were still remote and mountainous regions. ill suited for farming the excess population train up as special operation agents / mercanaries to make their living.

Another famous example was the village of 雜賀 which is modern day Wakayama city. they were probably the most famous mercenaries but they weren't ninjas (at least not most famously known as Ninjas) they were a scary army that specializes in arbeques and navy.

There is a group called 根來 that also operated in the area of Wakayama, they were also great with arbeques but many were also monk soldiers (where as the 雜賀 is more based on fishermans)

[RollingWave]

Citing sources would make your arguments more persuasive. This is coming from the guy using wiki and Dr. Turnbull, obviously not Japanese sources which would be authoritative.

I'm sure you're right in many respects, but your definition of a Ronin = Any samurai fighting against the Shogun? I don't buy it. A Ronin is a masterless samurai in the normal sense of the word.

There are some English speaking Japanese history academic journals, and those would be authoritative, but this is a war game forum, and we shouldn't expect much.

Where during the Sengoku Jidai can you find foreign merc naries being utilized by Japan? I haven't been able real sources for that. You would think that Toyotomi Hideyoshi would have used Korean conscripts from the countryside during the Imjin War. That would have made sense if it would have been palatable.

I believe the samurai source code was written mostly based on the Takeda code during Shingen's reign. which although is the height of th Sengoku era should not be seen as the definitive and abosalute of how everything went down across Japan. for example I have just cited Oda's code during Nobunaga as a example of how Ashigaru was most likely the vast majority of their forces.

Not to meantion, Shingen died in 1573, that code was written most likely in the 1550s-60s, so it was sort of at the very tail end of the chaotic era of Sengoku, and was heading into the start of a new era. where Oda Nobunaga would set in motion the eventual path to the Edo period. much changed in japan from the 50s-60s to it's wars in the 80s . there was a strong gradual change both towards using more guns, and the gradual professionalizing of armies based on ashigarus, and the scale of war and how campaigns operated also begin to change (larger war, longer campaigns)

[Ludicus]

- It is not that the Japanese were against hiring foreign mercenary, it is the fact that there simply wasn't much avalible to them, the cost of hiring mercenary then tranferring them across the sea is horrifically unpractical at best

Not exactly, RollingWave.
From Macau/Estado da India/ eventually Nagasaki? why not? (for example, Nagasaki was fortified, possessed a cathedral and became a major port, its prosperity resting on the Macau trade. In 1571 Nagasaki was selected as the main Japanese base for the Portuguese China-Japan trade, a trade which for the next six decades esperienced great prosperity.)

As rekishiotaku pointed out, "Portuguese mercenaries were very active in Africa and SE Asia at this time".

This:
"The heyday for Portuguese mercenaries in Asia was between about 1750 and 1610. During this years the Portuguese authorities were periodically approached by beligerants lobbyists with proposals for military expeditions and conquests, usually in Southeast and East Asia...
Private trade was the means by which most Portuguese sought to make their way in Asia; but, for the fit and the bold, another option was mercenary soldiering. In practice many Portuguese combined both these activities, or else they were drifted between the one and the other...
... men were attracted to mercenary soldiering in by a combination of excellent pay, tempting for loot and good prospects for personal advancement. Hiring soldiers was an established tradition in many Asian states, and young Portuguese who formed themselves into mercenaries bands usually experienced little difficulty in finding an employer...
... In the early sixteenth century they mostly served in one or another of the Indian kingdoms, particularly Vijayanagar, Bijapur, Ahmadnagar and Gujarat. Later they spread far outside the sub-continent, from Madasgascar to Makassar. Portuguese mercenaries bands enjoyed a good professional reputation, particularly as horsemen, gunners and musketeers, and often served as personal bodyguards."

The text goes, describing in detail some examples: Camboja, Burma, eastern Bengal.

"....also about this time Portuguese mercenaries were beggining to intervene in China -though they came to aid the Ming against Manchu invaders.. On at least five occasions between 1621 and 1647 expeditions were dispatched to Chinese mainland from Macau, in reponse from urgent pleas from Beijing...Portuguese soldiers-of-fortune were most certainly a force to reckoned with in asia during the sixteenth and early seventeeth centuries. In 1627 they were estimated to number at least 3,000 in Bengal, 1,500 in mailand southeast Asia, and 500 in Makassar, so totalling over 5,000 in this three areas alone...there is little doubt that Portuguese mercenary bands had a significant disruptive impact on the Southeast Asian countries in which they lostly plied their trade"

Source, "A history of Portugal and Portuguese Empire, volume 2, Chapter" Informal Presence in the East", subchapter "Soldiers-of-Fortune" pages 187-192.
AR, Disney, 2009

In conclusion, no reason to say "the cost of hiring mercenary then tranferring them across the sea is horrifically unpractical at best".

Nakandakari Lobato

Here's the original question:
"Did the Japanese employ mercenaries from China or Korea or anywhere else for that matter? "
I think that the answer is no.

Precisely.


----

According to Noel Perrin, Korea was at a considerably lower state of technology than Japan, the first Korean gun manual says " there are no guns like these in China; we got them from the Japanese barbarians.. the good ones will go through armor. If you shoot a person, it hits his lungs.
One can even hit the hole of a coin, not only just the willow leaf at 500 feet...either from horse or on foot, a gun is more than ten times better than a spear, and five times better than a bow and arrow"

[Lord John Talbot]

In my opinion in the game some mercenaries should be European soldiers. I'm writing this because at least the Portuguese and the Dutch went to Japan and founded there some trading ports. Of course it will be amzaing to play with some European well drilled and technologically advanced soldiers. They will habe an high cost, but they should be introduced in the game.

[KaRoU23]

Damn i am started to get pissed....Some guys don't know if they want to have historical accuracy of fun....... Just because there were Europeans back then in trading colonies in Asia, that doesn't mean that they were mercs to.... n: So, if so many want that bad Europeans, CA will do that s....t to satisfy them.....

[Swagger]

with only 30 troops, there aren't much space for mercenaries..

[Nicolaos]

there should be a limited amount of ronin mercenaries.

[Inhuman One]

regarding europeans, they could show up as retinue at best I think.

[Furious Mental]

Portugese caravels were hired to bombard a coastal fort on one occasion. That would be sweet.

[Ludicus]

regarding europeans, they could show up as retinue

Well, why not?...

Portugese ...were hired to bombard a coastal fort on one occasion.

Indeed. I would like to add, the eradication of the Chinese traders and pirates.

"...in the following year, 1544, Portuguese vessels turned up at Tagenashima again, this time in great numbers. More Portuguese ships visited Bungo, on the isles of Kyushu.
All of this was so unsettling to the illegal Chinese traders, who until this time had enjoyed exclusive intercourse with Japan, that they were provoked to attack the newcomers in hope of driving them away.
But the Chinese "interloopers" were apparently ignorant of European cannonry: a battle ensued in which they were completely routed. Thereafter, to 100 or more Chinese junks that had been sighted in Japanese harbours were seen no more. It was either this open demonstration of pyrotecnics against the Chinese or some inpromptu exhibitions given by the Portuguese at Tagenashima that enormously impressed the Japanese"
Source:
B. Diffie, book, "The foundations of the Portuguese Empire", page 395