Chaos - actually it is not bad??

[hellheaven1987]

An interesting quotation from Lexicanum.

Chaos offers power to the ambitious. To some, it offers hope in an unfair world, where justice, wealth and happiness are the prerogatives of a privileged few, and where the only escape from starvation or persecution lies in the egalitarian favours of Chaos - for Chaos judges its servants on merit alone and rewards them accordingly.

Sounds like Chaos Gods are quite fair - you gain what you are working for, no less or more. It sounds like serving Chaos Gods is better choice than serving a dead body on life supporting system, which you may work 24 hours per day like slaves but still die like dirt.

[cenkiss]

There is no good in warhammer 40k.But chaos may not always reward you for your work.You may easily be killed to summon a deamon.Your merits does not really matter much.

[grinder]

Hm lets see... Chaos gods reward their followers for how well they do their jobs. Thats not bad. But when reward can easily mean you get transformed into a chaos spawn and "doing your job well" means killing, maiming, raping, spreading horrible diseases and torturing, then yes, I would say Chaos is definitely bad.

[Ulysses S. Grant]

Well the only true evil faction in 40k is Dark Eldar. They kill, torture and rape for fun, but chaos do it to sustain themselves. And technically Nurgle is very loving and compasionate (He just shows it in the wrong way)

[hellheaven1987]

Hm lets see... Chaos gods reward their followers for how well they do their jobs. Thats not bad. But when reward can easily mean you get transformed into a chaos spawn and "doing your job well" means killing, maiming, raping, spreading horrible diseases and torturing, then yes, I would say Chaos is definitely bad.

Like Imperium does not torture its own citizens.

And no, Chaos Spawn is for failure. Successful champions can advance into Daemon Princes.

[Ulysses S. Grant]

And no, Chaos Spawn is for failure. Successful champions can advance into Daemon Princes.

Thats mostly true. However Scyla Anfingrimm from Warhammer fantasy is a spawn but only became so because Khorne gave him more gifts than his mortal body could handle and so he devolved into a spawn. He was very much in khornes favour, its just the gods don't think about how much a mortal body can withstand before something bad happens.

[grinder]

Did I say the Imperium was good? Of course it is not. And about this reward thing... When I read fluff a few years ago the Chaos gods didn't care at all about their champions. When one rose to their attention they threw mutations at him, either making him powerful (up to demon prince) or, if his flesh was too weak, an creeping abomination.
And of course one could start an endless debate about in which ways Chaos is evil, if itself views as such and what evil is to begin with, but that's not really necessary. Murder, death, betrayal, decay and agony are what keeps those gods alive. They (likely) were born from evil (like Slaanesh, who was born by the decadence and perversity of the Eldar) and they need acts of evil, committed by their followers, to exist.
I think saying the Chaos is not evil, is like saying the dark side of the Force and the Sith are not evil. From their point of view that may be true, but you can say that about almost any tyrant, murderer and power.
Or were the Nazis not evil, because they thought they did the right thing, and oh, you could rise in rank and be rewarded with fancy Iron Crosses and so on, so definitely not evil, no!

[hellheaven1987]

Did I say the Imperium was good? Of course it is not. And about this reward thing... When I read fluff a few years ago the Chaos gods didn't care at all about their champions. When one rose to their attention they threw mutations at him, either making him powerful (up to demon prince) or, if his flesh was too weak, an creeping abomination.
And of course one could start an endless debate about in which ways Chaos is evil, if itself views as such and what evil is to begin with, but that's not really necessary. Murder, death, betrayal, decay and agony are what keeps those gods alive. They (likely) were born from evil (like Slaanesh, who was born by the decadence and perversity of the Eldar) and they need acts of evil, committed by their followers, to exist.
I think saying the Chaos is not evil, is like saying the dark side of the Force and the Sith are not evil. From their point of view that may be true, but you can say that about almost any tyrant, murderer and power.
Or were the Nazis not evil, because they thought they did the right thing, and oh, you could rise in rank and be rewarded with fancy Iron Crosses and so on, so definitely not evil, no!

Ohhh, so under your defination everyone is evil??

Well the only true evil faction in 40k is Dark Eldar. They kill, torture and rape for fun, but chaos do it to sustain themselves. And technically Nurgle is very loving and compasionate (He just shows it in the wrong way)

We can actually say Dark Eldars are insane, driving mad because the slow pain of their bodies when Slaanesh slowly draining their souls.

[Ulysses S. Grant]

We can actually say Dark Eldars are insane, driving mad because the slow pain of their bodies when Slaanesh slowly draining their souls.

Well they still enjoy it.

[grinder]

Are you implying that only one who knows, and accepts what he does is evil, can be viewed as evil by others? Well, hurray then, because with that valuation system evil does not exist. They always have a reason. They always think they do the right, the necessary thing.

Reapers of Mass Effect? Not evil, only cleaning the Universe from filthy organics.
Nazis? Same with earth/humanity.
Sauron? Just wants to unite Middle Earth under his power to maintain order.
(Tolkien: "it had been his virtue, and therefore also the cause of his fall (...) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.")

See a pattern there?

[hellheaven1987]

Are you implying that only one who knows, and accepts what he does is evil, can be viewed as evil by others? Well, hurray then, because with that valuation system evil does not exist. They always have a reason. They always think they do the right, the necessary thing.

Reapers of Mass Effect? Not evil, only cleaning the Universe from filthy organics.
Nazis? Same with earth/humanity.
Sauron? Just wants to unite Middle Earth under his power to maintain order.
(Tolkien: "it had been his virtue, and therefore also the cause of his fall (...) that he loved order and coordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.")

See a pattern there?

You have not answered the question I ask you, or you just try to run away by leading the topic to other directions??

I would repeat that question again - under your defination everyone is evil??

[grinder]

I did not answer that question intentional. Because it is kind of absurd. Of course not everyone is evil. It is difficult though to find a universal way of judging what is evil and what is not. In the Wh 40k universe, by our morals, all factions are evil (save Tyranids perhaps as they are really just animals). To put it simple, every person or group, that puts the well-being of others below their own goals (intentionally) is evil, or at least on a good way towards becoming evil. I know that is not very apply-able to our complex world, but as evil is always a matter of perspective I have to find a universal guideline to judge by.
Of course there are different levels of evil.
In the Wh 40k universe the Eldar or Tau are not as evil as the Chaos is, because Eldar are a dying race that tries everything to stay alive, and Tau are conquerors who try a peaceful approach, integrating other races into their empire, before they crush them.
I hope won't have to point out the difference between those races and Chaos.
Ok, so now it's your turn. Please tell me how Terrorists, Nazis, Sauron, Reapers, Chaos and all the others are NOT evil. Or why some are and others not.

[hellheaven1987]

In the Wh 40k universe the Eldar or Tau are not as evil as the Chaos is, because Eldar are a dying race that tries everything to stay alive, and Tau are conquerors who try a peaceful approach, integrating other races into their empire, before they crush them.

Blah.

Eldar: To save a few Eldars it is fine to sacrify millions citizens of Imperium.

Tau: Convert to Greater Good, or die painfully in reeducation camp. It is your choice!!!

Khorne and its followers are far better than those two in every aspect.

[grinder]

Blah.

Khorne: To slaughter millions of citiziens of Imperium it is fine to slaughter millions of citizens of Imperium.

Khorne: Surrender and get slaughtered or get slaughtered in combat. It is your choice!!!

See what I did there?
I never denied Eldar and Tau do evil things. Actually I said they are evil too. But as you said your self. Tau leave their enemies a chance to survive, become a part of their empire. Eldar don't sacrifice Imperials for fun either. They want to save their kin. Their methods are what makes them evil. When you look at Chaos on the other hand, pretty much all about it is evil. The gods just want to become more powerful in the end. And they enjoy what their followers do to, yeah... everyone in fact. Even to each other. Khorne loves when his berzerkers turn against their own kin, in a furious battle rage.
The only good thing about Khorne and his boys is, that they prefer to kill their foes fast, as inflicting unnecessary pain on them would strengthen Slaanesh.
Speaking of him, Slaanesh loves seeing sadistic acts of all kind.
Tzeentch manipulates in every way imaginable, possibly causing more suffering then any of the other gods, but more difficult to spot, in fact trying to find out what he does, would strengthen him further, tricky!
Nurgle cares for his creatures (being those that survive his diseases and become living incubators of those diseases), but apparently not for the billions that die.
edit: After reading about him again I saw that I was wrong. He does care, about them. In fact their despair and suffering of the ones that are deceasing is his source of power, but being the nice guy he is, he thinks he does them a favor, and their tears, show their gratitude. Such a nice old man, heartbreaking!


By the way, this time it's you who dodged the question.

[IZob]

Chaos not evil? Lol! This simply means that chaos have you under their control. They want you to believe they are not evil

But to a sertern extent, all races are evil. Some more then others

[hellheaven1987]

Blah.

Khorne: To slaughter millions of citiziens soldeirs of Imperium it is fine to slaughter millions of citizens soldiers of Imperium.

Khorne: Surrender and get slaughtered or get slaughtered in combat. It is your choice!!!

Fixed.

Touch non-warriors and prepare to face eternal punishment from Khorne.

[grinder]

Nope
"Every act of violence gives Khorne power, whether committed by his followers or by enemies..."
He is not only the god of battle, but of bloodshed in general.
Even suggesting that Khorne would punish his followers for killing civilians is absurd. He would not be very impressed by the feat, but it would strengthen him anyway.
He only "considers the weak and helpless to be unworthy of his wrath."
What really pisses him off, is when a follower of his, lets a day pass without shedding blood.
"Worship of Khorne is purely through bloodshed; it is said that any follower who allows a day to pass without contributing to this act of worship will incur Khorne's displeasure."

[hellheaven1987]

Nope
"Every act of violence gives Khorne power, whether committed by his followers or by enemies..."
He is not only the god of battle, but of bloodshed in general.
Even suggesting that Khorne would punish his followers for killing civilians is absurd. He would not be very impressed by the feat, but it would strengthen him anyway.

Nope.

Khorne is said to have inherited a martial nobility and honour, and considers the weak and helpless to be unworthy of his wrath.

And we have a story how Khorne punished one of his followers for slaughter a whole unarmed citizens of whole city.

[grinder]

I don't know this story, but I would guess it is about a champion Khorne had high hopes for. And killing unarmed citizens, being "unworthy" (what a noble reason for sparing someone by the way), made him angry in context with his high hopes for said champion? As in totally misunderstanding that real glory can only be earned in slaughtering "worthy" opponents. I bet that he would not care about if a traitor warband (the least of his followers) would do the same thing. Because, you know the part about all kind of bloodshed strengthening him is from the very same source (Lexicanum), you took that honor-thing from.

Edit: I think I could put it more clearly:
I think what caused Khornes anger was less the act itself, but the total misunderstanding of his wishes. I bet that champion thought he would do Khorne a great favor, killing those civilians. And by thinking that he dishonored Khorne himself. Which is not a wise thing to do, if one has his attention.

[hellheaven1987]

Edit: I think I could put it more clearly:
I think what caused Khornes anger was less the act itself, but the total misunderstanding of his wishes. I bet that champion thought he would do Khorne a great favor, killing those civilians. And by thinking that he dishonored Khorne himself. Which is not a wise thing to do, if one has his attention.

No, what Khorne believe is a "fair fight", the very reason why he dislike all dishonorable act (and the very reason why he condemn magic and range weapons, thinking using tricks are not honorable). Slaughter unarmed, untrained civilians is, to Khorne, an unfair fighting. Sure, Khorne may love blood and skulls, but it also values fairness and warriorhood above all (not to mention there are billions warriors in Imperium waiting for its followers to kill).

That is why Khorne is awesome - nothing is better than a honorable war.