NER 0.76 - my criticism

[Nikitn]

There was a comment on steam usergroup..

Complaints:

Making certain factions "elite" factions (UK). This is retarded. First of all reason UK didn't make a big army is because they didn't need it. I'm sure if UK got invaded they would conscript huge masses of soldiers, as untrained as the rest of European countries.

Making certain factions "zerg" factions (Ottomans, Russia). Ok, first of all why is Russia "zerg faction" (cheap infantry, high morale and melee, inexistant shooting ability)..? It had population LESS than "greater France" (and her population was VERY spread), and certainly much less than areas controlled by France. Russians often inflicted higher casualties on French than they took.

Russian infantry has 5 on reload (). If anything Russian infantry should have above average reload, due 2 the tough drilling. Due 2 low quality weapons the Russians should have lower accuracy on other hand.

Ottoman Nizam infantry having 1 on reload ( - this alone makes CA's version much more historically accurate than this crap). Those infantry were supposed 2 be modern army modelled on European army. Also AI is 2 dumb 2 use infantry with 1 ( the stupidity) reload.

Dumb attempts by the dev team "2 be smart". Why making new units? Why changing the unit description (those that were writing those write in bad English)??

Just make exp upgrades count more for all units. That's it. Don't fix something if it isn't broken.

Conclusion: Where can I download 0.751??? I have lost it...

[garudamon11]

i didnt notice nizam-i-jedid have 1 reloading speed O.o if thats true it must be changed

[Nikitn]

even Russian elite pavlovsk grenadiers as well as regular grenadiers have 5 reload speed... they should stop trying 2 act smart and just go back 2 old stats & unit descriptions imho.

[.Mitch.]

Did you have to make your point in such an aggressive condescending manner?

[JaM]

Kirov123: You totally missed the point of this mod... you are looking at 0 exp stats, and running into conclusions... but first exp point increases reload by +10! (instead of ridiculously insignificant +2 of vanilla), second exp point adds another +15 in reload... so even Nizam or Russian infantry that starts with 1 or 5 points with 2 exp point becomes unit with 26-30 reload... experience table is no longer linear, experience gains are very high for first three levels, and are smaller for level 4 up to 9. Level 3 unit is considered VETERAN unit. everything above 3, is considered Elite.. normal line regiments are recruitable with experience which increases with type of building. (up to 2 points), Grenadiers, Voltigeurs etc starts at 2exp points, Elite units like Old Guards or Coldstream Guards are recruitable with 4-6 exp points!

SO AGAIN - 0 exp unit represent fresh recruits without any combat experience or training. Those men are summoned in two weeks or one month, so they have no chance to become effective force! it mean nothing if they are Pavlovsk Grenadiers or Coldsteam Guards if they never fired a weapon...


All factions have balanced stats based on historical realities - you can argue about Russian troops, but Truth is, they got the lowest musket training of all European soldiers, most of the time they didn't fired single round entire YEAR.... Russian soldiers were taken from landlords which chosen the least intelligent men to go to army (they had use for capable men to work on their fields...), they were no match for French revolutionary volunteers or later french drafted young men.


Oh and about Ottoman - read the history books, they were no match even for Russian army, which defeated Ottomans several times with much smaller forces...


Experience! Everything depends on Experience! Even that ineffective militia unit become an elite old guard with 9 exp points!

and btw, British were not able to form large conscript armies because a lot of men were serving with Navy which had much higher priority than their army... look at middle of 18 century - whole Britain was affraid of few thousands (7-8000) Scotts, and they defeated them at Culloden with just 8000 men which were practically all soldiers British army had on Isles!

Same was true with Napoleonic era - Wellington's army at Waterloo had just few thousands British soldiers, remaining were German (and i don't mean Prussian)...

Britain knew its limits, they were not able to have big army due to Navy, so instead they trained their troops more and spend a lot of money for fire training.. Per year British infantrymen fired 30-50 live shots in training, Light Infantrymen over 60. For example norm in France was 20 rounds and 20 blanks for Line infantry, but after defeats of 1812 there were also men who never fired weapon at all until they got into combat!


so my suggestion to you is to look at unit stats within campaign mode, and don't judge the mod by looking at stats in quick battles. System we are using in 0.76 is vastly superior to the system we had before and better models the real situation on battlefields - Smaller army of veteran troops can easilly defeat hordes of inexperienced soldiers, same way as it was in reality.

[.Mitch.]

Just an observation, I'v not personaly played the mod, but would getting an infantry unit with the stats mentioned not be extremely difficult to actualy get them to a "Veteran stage", surely such useless infantry would die in its first battle.

Is this a problem you have?

[Marcus Licinius]

the British were one of the only nations that trained 'live' while others most notably France trained 'Dead' hence green French infantry normally fired high, while the British were firing more level, if you've ever fired a gun you would know the difference between the two systems. Also if you were conscriptied into an army you wouldn't fight as well as going freely.

[Nikitn]

OK you are obviously ranting. This is huge problem: You pretty much killed custom battles. You fail 2 understand that Line infantry soldiers were no militia - obviously they had been trained in shooting and fighting under training and on every free occasion.

Ok, first of all Russian troops were recruited by recruiters. That is how levies work, recruiters come and take those that they want. Second, as far as I know "live" shooting training in the Russian army was as rare as in other countries, and bullets were rarely used. Problem was NOT the drilling but the poor firearms. Do you understand this, all mighty JaM? Second, Russian soldiers proved themselves more than a match for French "revolutionary soldiers" under Suvorov. Suvorov's men were arguably the best in the world. Otherwise if we see such battles like Elyau, Berezina, Borodino et cetra we can clearly see that Russian army was a match for the cream of the French army (the veterans Napoleon commanded).

Ottomans: You fail at comprehending one very important fact. Ottoman soldiers were some of THE BEST individual fighters. Like Napoleon said; 100 French Fusiliers are as good as 40 mameluks, 200 as good as 100 mameluks 2000 as good as 3000 mameluks... It was something like this. Problem was very often leadership, though THIS is where the player comes in, and organization.

Nizam Corps were VERY successful in the time b4 they were disbanded due 2 politics.

~ 30k British soldiers & officers fought in waterloo. A "bit" more than a few thousand. Anyway my point was that if British had 2, they WOULD mass levy poorly trained soldiers... Just like the Russians did when they were invaded by a 600k army.

Now, I will talk why your system is fundamentally flawed. You say that Russian infantry will have ~ 30 reload when they have exp... but by then UK will have what, 60-70 reload..? There are MANY cases of inexperienced men beating experienced enemy. Just look at the most obvious example, Napoleon's rag-tag troops winning against British line infantry at Toulon or Napoleon's campaign in Italy... I don't remember which battle, but there was 1 where Prussian militia along with Russian cossacks defeated a French corps in a field battle. Napoleon often had worse soldiers than enemy, but still won. Your reasoning is idiotic I suggest you read some stuff at for example napoleonistyka.atspace.com

Is there possible 2 download 0.751? I like the decreased effect of musket fire & tight lines + multiple ranks firing.

Marcus Lisinius, Russian soldiers were known for their morale and discipline.

[Seijitai]

MODERATION ON : Kirov123, the fact that you do not agree with some of our decisions regarding stats, descriptions and so, does not authorize you in any way to be aggressive, condescending or insulting with the team. One more post on the same tone you used, and it will be your last one in our forum. MODERATION OFF.

@ all : gentlemen, comments and criticisms are always welcome. But please, remember to do it on a proper tone, and also that all of this is a work in progress...

[JaM]

kirov123: i refuse to respond to your posts if you will continue insulting me.

[JaM]

here is what http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/in..._tactics_2.htm says about musketry training...

There were lead allowance for yearly exercises in life fire training.
- British riflemen - 60 rounds and 60 blanks per man
- British light infantry - 50 rounds and 60 blanks
- Prussian jägers and riflemen - 60 "practice rounds" per man (in 1811-1812)
- - - French infantry - 40 rounds "for target practice" but
- - - - - only "in several regiments" (Waterloo Campaign 1815)
- - - - - Prussian light infantry (fusiliers) - 30 "practice rounds" per man (in 1811-1812)
- - - - - British line infantry - 30 rounds
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Austrian line infantry - 10 rounds (in 1809, Wagram Campaign)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austrian line infantry - 6 rounds (in 1805 Austerlitz Campaign)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian infantry - 6 rounds or much less
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - French recruits - 2 rounds (in 1813 and 1814 ?)


Britain was the wealthiest country in the world with relatively small field army. Excellent state of coffers enabled the British goverment to finance training of the troops (practice shooting) to a level the larger and poorer European armies were unable to reach. Such were the shortages of ammunition in Russia that some line infantry battalions were trained to fire with clay bullets !
( - Alexander Zhmodikov)
The Russian Foot Guards were superbly trained and equipped, and the Moscow Grenadier Regiment received large number of British "Brown Bess" muskets, but many other regiments were in sorry state. To increase the firepower of infantry division the Russians strengthened it with numerous artillery pieces. Additionally, in 1812-14 many front line regiments acquired large numbers of captured French muskets.

(in 0.76 all Russian Guards starts with 3-4exp points)

difference between Russian Infantry and British infantry with 0-3 exp points:

0 exp brits vs russians
Reload 15 vs 5
Accuracy 24 vs 18
melee 4 vs 6
defense 6 vs 6

1 exp
Reload 25 vs 15
Accuracy 30 vs 24
melee 6 vs 8
defense 7 vs 7

2 exp
Reload 40 vs 30
Accuracy 36 vs 30
melee 7 vs 9
defense 8 vs 8

3 exp
Reload 55 vs 45
Accuracy 42 vs 36
melee 9 vs 11
defense 10 vs 10

[Nikitn]

First of all, lead bullets were rarely used due 2 their cost (and as you can see they could be replaced by clay bullets) Firing without them is also a possibility and quite a bit cheaper. But what is your point?? Russian infantry were extremely well drilled. Problem was they didn't have good muskets...

Russian artillery was 100% professional and widely considered the best in the world on average. Obviously this isn't reflected but it isn't really that big deal.

I don't know what you are trying 2 prove. I simply say: Bring back stats from 0.751 I think this new experience system crushed your mod. You said it urself, some factions will specifically focus on numbers, while others on quality but you forget that it is all relative 2 the current situations. Do you really think British would continue their slow training of elite soldiers, if Napoleon was fighting for London??

ALSO: Fix the Ottoman army... it is ridiculous for units like Nizam infantry having stats... Just frustrating playing with the Ottomans on custom battle (even though it's meant for campaign but whatever).

[JaM]

stats are fine for campaign play which is our main focus. quick battles or MP have different version of stats within MP_combat pack. I understand that as a Russian you are biased towards Russian army, so truth is hard to accept for you.

you say Russian infantry was well drilled, but i say how many of them were drilled? take a whole number into picture.. Russian Army had about 550 000 men in arms (1794) and 150 000 irregulars (Cossacs and others), wast majority of those soldiers had minimal training, with only guard units getting any...

and about that drill, even Suvorov preferred bayonet over musketry in many of his battles he forced his men to not fire single bullet and just charge with bayonets! so even those unit that were drilled, sometimes didnt recieved proper musket training and isntead were trained how to fight with bayonets.. (and that is modeled with Russian infantry as they have higher melee and charge of all )

[MrT]

here is what http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/in..._tactics_2.htm says about musketry training...

There were lead allowance for yearly exercises in life fire training.
- British riflemen - 60 rounds and 60 blanks per man
- British light infantry - 50 rounds and 60 blanks
- Prussian jägers and riflemen - 60 "practice rounds" per man (in 1811-1812)
- - - French infantry - 40 rounds "for target practice" but
- - - - - only "in several regiments" (Waterloo Campaign 1815)
- - - - - Prussian light infantry (fusiliers) - 30 "practice rounds" per man (in 1811-1812)
- - - - - British line infantry - 30 rounds
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Austrian line infantry - 10 rounds (in 1809, Wagram Campaign)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austrian line infantry - 6 rounds (in 1805 Austerlitz Campaign)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian infantry - 6 rounds or much less
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - French recruits - 2 rounds (in 1813 and 1814 ?)


Britain was the wealthiest country in the world with relatively small field army. Excellent state of coffers enabled the British goverment to finance training of the troops (practice shooting) to a level the larger and poorer European armies were unable to reach. Such were the shortages of ammunition in Russia that some line infantry battalions were trained to fire with clay bullets !
( - Alexander Zhmodikov)
The Russian Foot Guards were superbly trained and equipped, and the Moscow Grenadier Regiment received large number of British "Brown Bess" muskets, but many other regiments were in sorry state. To increase the firepower of infantry division the Russians strengthened it with numerous artillery pieces. Additionally, in 1812-14 many front line regiments acquired large numbers of captured French muskets.

(in 0.76 all Russian Guards starts with 3-4exp points)

difference between Russian Infantry and British infantry with 0-3 exp points:

0 exp brits vs russians
Reload 15 vs 5
Accuracy 24 vs 18
melee 4 vs 6
defense 6 vs 6

1 exp
Reload 25 vs 15
Accuracy 30 vs 24
melee 6 vs 8
defense 7 vs 7

2 exp
Reload 40 vs 30
Accuracy 36 vs 30
melee 7 vs 9
defense 8 vs 8

3 exp
Reload 55 vs 45
Accuracy 42 vs 36
melee 9 vs 11
defense 10 vs 10

Hi JaM,
Totally on your side in this debate here after playing an entire french campaign. However could you please add the charge bonus in your comparison here since I think that you have given the russians a better value here. Also is charge bonus also affected by experience?

[DaVinci]

Closed that broken thread. And that what Seijitai said in his post is seconded.
Kirov123, if you don't like what we do, then don't let the NER mod on your computer, especially if you aren't able to comment in a proper manner, and the same is valid for this NER forum.
Btw., pre-0.76 NER versions aren't availlable anymore.

Everybody else, please use the usual threads for related points, if something seems to be important for a further discussion.

EDIT

As the thread-title is more than ridiculous in regard of NER, i changed it to a proper title.