WIP Article 2: Religion

[Hengest]

Under religion we have a number of trees, naturally each representing different religions. However, as with everything in Dominion, nothing has been simple or clear-cut. We have spent years discussing each religion and how best to reflect a number of situations spanning some 400 years. When you begin to look at it like that, you can see how much hard work has been needed.

PAGANISM
This is a difficult area since many indigenous religions were not related even if we nowadays see them as being under the same definition. Another problem has been how to represent the lack of growth or active conversion in medieval paganism, whilst yet it survived in folkish forms for centuries under Christian or Muslim suppression. Here is an example of how we have chosen to represent this.

BURIAL MOUNDS
This is an indestricutible but unbuildable 'structure' that will be present in some settlements from the game start, these are areas with innate and continuing pagan traditions, 'black zones' if you like. They have a small paganism conversion bonus which means these regions are always going to have a small element of pagan tradition. This will require Christianity to be more active and aggressive here in you want the new faith to succeed. For those of you who want to follow the old ways, such as in the case of Sweden and Lithuania you can actually build temples and encourage numerous cults. That is, if the Burial Mounds exist. You cannot conquer new regions and set up paganism, unless it was there to begin with.

Here is an example of the pagan buildings available to Prussian and Slavic rebels such as the Obotrites.



First of all you require Burial Mounds in the region. If you have that, you can develop paganism.
(i) Shrines -->


(ii) Sacred Grove -->

(iii) Temple -->


(iv) Cults-- (you now have four choices of cults but you can only favour one)

A: Sventevith ('The Four Headed')
+ conversion (supreme), + experience (war god), + law (god of law), - order (war cult), + growth (god of plenty)



B: Chernobog ('The Black God')
+ experience (warriors' god) , - order ('black magic')

C: Rugiewit ('As Perkunas')
+ growth (farming), + experience (warriors' god)

D: Živa ('Goddess of Love')
+ growth (farming), + growth (fertility rites), + order (god of peace, his shrines required disarming)

[Seleukos_I.]

Great

[Horatius Flaccus]

Good idea. Too bad you can't spread Paganism in regions without the burial grounds, but I prefer the historical accuracy.

Religion sure is going to be interesting in DotS!

[Beorn]

nice

[\Vazul's Ghost/]

Thats a great way to approach it, very realistic. Do you think the AI will ever effectively use this system, i.e.; will we ever see an AI Sweden become dominantly Pagan?

[Ozzmosis]

Nice! How about Turkic Tengriism/paganism? I think that was still popular among Turkmens/other tribal turks even in the middle ages.

[sumskilz]

Do you think the AI will ever effectively use this system, i.e.; will we ever see an AI Sweden become dominantly Pagan?

Not sure, but it is hard to make the AI do anything that it wasn't specifically designed to do. Like everything else, it will require some testing before we know for certain.

How about Turkic Tengrism/paganism? I think that was still popular among Turkmens/other tribal turks even in the middle ages.

And the Mongols.

[Ozzmosis]

oh yeah, obviously...
so will they be represented in the same fashion as lithuanian/swedish paganism, or does tengriism get its own slot?

[sumskilz]

so will they be represented in the same fashion as lithuanian/swedish paganism, or does tengriism get its own slot?

We didn't have a slot open for Tengriism, but that doesn't mean it has to be represented exactly the same because we have a Steppe culture which can have it's own unique versions of buildings. I don't have any details because it hasn't been implemented yet. The Cuman (Mongols transition) faction will begin as a pagan faction.

[Ozzmosis]

So "Paganism" is a religion on its own, and Sweden and Lithuania can choose to encourage it, but Cumans and mongols start as "pagan"? who else is pagan?

[sumskilz]

So "Paganism" is a religion on its own, and Sweden and Lithuania can choose to encourage it, but Cumans and mongols start as "pagan"? who else is pagan?

Lithuania also starts as a Pagan faction.

Sweden's rulers had been Christian for a few generations by our mod's start date, but the Kingdom contained a sizable pagan element. I'm not sure what our Sweden researchers have decided, but I think Sweden should probably begin in (or shortly thereafter experience) a civil war between Inge who was almost deposed for attempting to eliminate the pagan cult at Uppsala and his brother-in-law Sweyn who was tolerant of paganism.

Other than what has already been mentioned there aren’t any other Pagan factions, but there will be pockets of Paganism scattered across the map.

EDIT: Lithuania will have the option to convert to Christianity as they did historically. I don't think it has been discussed but the Mongols should also have the options to convert to Islam and/or convert to or at least support Oriental Orthodoxy.

[Ozzmosis]

I heard that a large proportion of Mongol tribes were actually Nestorian Christian, even before Genghis' conquest. The Naimans, Merkits and especially Keraits were predominantly christian, and Genghis' early mentor and later enemy, Tughrul Khan, was leader of the Keraits and was Christian. many of Genghis' daughters in law were christian as well.
quite intruiging actually
Is it at all possible to portray the Mongols' tolerance towards other religions and multi-faith society?

[sumskilz]

I heard that a large proportion of Mongol tribes were actually Nestorian Christian, even before Genghis' conquest. The Naimans, Merkits and especially Keraits were predominantly christian, and Genghis' early mentor and later enemy, Tughrul Khan, was leader of the Keraits and was Christian. many of Genghis' daughters in law were christian as well.
quite intruiging actually

Exactly why I mentioned it and I agree.

Is it at all possible to portray the Mongols' tolerance towards other religions and multi-faith society?

Yeah, I think so.

[Hengest]

I think the situation will be quite organic for many factions, since they will have the oppurtunity to build pagan, Jewish, Muslim, Orthodox and Catholic religious bases in many cases. Sicily for instance had Judaism, Orthodoxy and Islam in addition to Catholicism. There will naturally be added repercussions to many of these buildings such as a declined Papal standing for say Sweden if it builds pagan buildings. Hope this explains some things. So there is no reason why the AI cannot take the historical situation in directions that did not happen historically, and make for exciting new situations.

[Ozzmosis]

So are the official religions then:
Catholicism
Orthodox Christianity
Islam
Judaism
Paganism?

[sumskilz]

So are the official religions then:
Catholicism
Orthodox Christianity
Islam
Judaism
Paganism?

Catholic Christianity
Orthodox Christianity
Oriental Orthodox Christianity (non-Chalcedonian Churches including Coptic Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, and Nestorian)
Shia Islam
Sunni Islam
Paganism
Heresy
Judaism
Hussitism

Paganism and Heresy are very broad terms but necessary because of game engine limitations.

[Ozzmosis]

wow nice!
Hussites get their own slot? Were they really that significant that they deserve a slot over Tengriism?

[motyc]

wow nice!
Hussites get their own slot? Were they really that significant that they deserve a slot over Tengriism?

I think it's worth of it. It wasn't only heresy and it changed the situation in the middle Europe so much, that hussitism in many forms is living religion even today. For example Martin Luther also had it as significat source for his reform. It's first evangelical church in fact.

[Constantius]

You people never cease to impress me, you've even got the 'Eastern church' represented , always forgotten but spread as far as China

[Laser101]

Catholic Christianity
Orthodox Christianity
Oriental Orthodox Christianity (non-Chalcedonian Churches including Coptic Orthodox, Armenian Apostolic, and Nestorian)
Shia Islam
Sunni Islam
Paganism
Heresy
Judaism
Hussitism

Paganism and Heresy are very broad terms but necessary because of game engine limitations.

If the Hussites are represented, what about other 'heretic' groups like Lollards or Cathars?