another history discussion...

[matija191]

Pozdrav!

well here I am opening new thread ...on this thread we should writte everything we know and that could help the Tsardoms total war team about shadow factions...if the team thinks that this new thread is unnecessary please closed it...

[matija191]

CROATIAN LEAGUE

Noble families:

Horvat family:


Hrvatinich family:


Lackovich family:


Priarity of Vrana (although not a family, Croatian Hospitallesr were one the most important part of Armies of Croatian League) :


that all for now, except more in the upcoming days ...

[Matthæus]

hmmm...

why Croatian league ? those nobles were in service of Ladislas of Naples (Anjou dynasty) and king of Bosnia. neither of them had any plans for independence of Croatia.

and you put Hrvatinic which was Croat but at the same time his family was always considered to be subjects of king of Bosnia

[Hrobatos]

because it was civil war, and thats exctly what shadow faction is supposd to show, fightings in the faction

[Bosnian_King]

because it was civil war, and thats exctly what shadow faction is supposd to show, fightings in the faction

For the Bosnian shadow faction you can consider "King Ostoja" as the shadow of king Tvrtko II. Because this king, who was not a member of the "Bosnian royal family" tried to get the power in an illegal way. The Hungarians helped this king Ostoja but Tvrtko II was stronger and he remained the king of Bosnia. Tvrtko II made an illiance with the Turks to fight "king Ostoja" and the Hungarians. I can give you details about this because I have a very detailed book about this "shadow faction".

But it would be better to use king Ostoja as just one of the "totally legal and legitimate Bosnian kings". The Croats who became part of the Bosnian kingdom; like Hrvatinici and Horvati they were never shadow factions of Bosnia because the were always in service of the Bosnian crown. Hrvoje Vukicic Hrvatinic was one of the most faithfull friends of the great Bosnian king Tvrtko I.

[matija191]

For the Bosnian shadow faction you can consider "King Ostoja" as the shadow of king Tvrtko II. Because this king, who was not a member of the "Bosnian royal family" tried to get the power in an illegal way. The Hungarians helped this king Ostoja but Tvrtko II was stronger and he remained the king of Bosnia. Tvrtko II made an illiance with the Turks to fight "king Ostoja" and the Hungarians. I can give you details about this because I have a very detailed book about this "shadow faction".

But it would be better to use king Ostoja as just one of the "totally legal and legitimate Bosnian kings". The Croats who became part of the Bosnian kingdom; like Hrvatinici and Horvati they were never shadow factions of Bosnia because the were always in service of the Bosnian crown. Hrvoje Vukicic Hrvatinic was one of the most faithfull friends of the great Bosnian king Tvrtko I.

one mistake-Horvati were not a part of bosnian kingdom...they independetely rulled Slavonia and Machva while Tvrtko Kotromanich controlled other parts of Croatia (but not all parts)...Ivan of Palizna was loyal servant, friend and counselor of Tvrtko Kotromanich....the Horvat family sided with Tvrtko because they didn´t have any other option....any way Horvat never fully admitted the Kotromanich rule and one the reason way the Tvrtko didn´t controlled Slavonia was the Horvat family...

[2Shy]

Will be bosnian shadow faction at all - in the other thread phoenix[illusin] said that the rest 2 slots are going for Napal ( probably shadow faction - Crown of Aragon) and for the Karamids (I'm not sure about the spelling ) ?

[Bosnian_King]

one mistake-Horvati were not a part of bosnian kingdom...they independetely rulled Slavonia and Machva while Tvrtko Kotromanich controlled other parts of Croatia (but not all parts)...Ivan of Palizna was loyal servant, friend and counselor of Tvrtko Kotromanich....the Horvat family sided with Tvrtko because they didn´t have any other option....any way Horvat never fully admitted the Kotromanich rule and one the reason way the Tvrtko didn´t controlled Slavonia was the Horvat family...

Yes well.... I don't know the details now. I got a lot of books which I all read but I forgot a lot of those things. We can not remember it all right?

As far as I know the nobles "Horvati" joined the Bosnian expansional wars during the 80's of Tvrtko's rule. I don't know what the political position was of the "Horvat family" after the period of Tvrtko I. But during the period of Tvrtko I; Horvati were faithfull to the Bosnian crown without doubt.

[matija191]

Yes well.... I don't know the details now. I got a lot of books which I all read but I forgot a lot of those things. We can not remember it all right?

As far as I know the nobles "Horvati" joined the Bosnian expansional wars during the 80's of Tvrtko's rule. I don't know what the political position was of the "Horvat family" after the period of Tvrtko I. But during the period of Tvrtko I; Horvati were faithfull to the Bosnian crown without doubt.

they were not faithfull to bosnian crown...they only sided with Kotromanich because the mother of Ladislav of Naples turned their proposition about making Ladislav as Croatian king...then they decided to listen their cousin Ivan of Palizna, who was always wanted to bring Tvrtko Kotromanich to croatian throne....later the Horvats turned to Kotromanich again because their armies were defeated and they needed the sanctuary...but Horvats were never faithfull servants bosnian crown...

and to clear some thing...Hrvatinich family served the bosnian crown...Ivan of Palizna,Horvats and the rest of Croatian League were serving the Croatian crown, not to the bosnian..they only bring Tvrtko on croatian throne and crown them with Croatian crown...they didn´t "emerge" their teritories with bosnian ones...

[Bosnian_King]

they were not faithfull to bosnian crown...they only sided with Kotromanich because the mother of Ladislav of Naples turned their proposition about making Ladislav as Croatian king...then they decided to listen their cousin Ivan of Palizna, who was always wanted to bring Tvrtko Kotromanich to croatian throne....later the Horvats turned to Kotromanich again because their armies were defeated and they needed the sanctuary...but Horvats were never faithfull servants bosnian crown...

and to clear some thing...Hrvatinich family served the bosnian crown...Ivan of Palizna,Horvats and the rest of Croatian League were serving the Croatian crown, not to the bosnian..they only bring Tvrtko on croatian throne and crown them with Croatian crown...they didn´t "emerge" their teritories with bosnian ones...

Listen I do not say that I know everything. I am an amateur historian who read 1 or 2 books in a year. But according to me; you are making one big mistake. The croatian crown was not a crown. There did not exist an independent croatian crown from the 11th century and further and there were no plans that "Tvrtko Kotromanic" would become a croatian king. Are u crazy? This is like when you would say to bring Car Dushan to the Hungarian throne.

Croats and Bosnians were brothers by language in this period. They had the same enemy: The Hungarians. And because Bosnia was the only "independent crown" all the "Slavic forces" who were against the Hungarian crown joined the holy Bosnian crown in one big war (or actually more wars) against the Hungarians.

[matija191]

Listen I do not say that I know everything. I am an amateur historian who read 1 or 2 books in a year. But according to me; you are making one big mistake. The croatian crown was not a crown. There did not exist an independent croatian crown from the 11th century and further and there were no plans that "Tvrtko Kotromanic" would become a croatian king. Are u crazy? This is like when you would say to bring Car Dushan to the Hungarian throne.

Croats and Bosnians were brothers by language in this period. They had the same enemy: The Hungarians. And because Bosnia was the only "independent crown" all the "Slavic forces" who were against the Hungarian crown joined the holy Bosnian crown in one big war (or actually more wars) against the Hungarians.

ohh croatian crown exist...the Ladislav of Naples was crowned with croatian crown in Zadar 1403.

bosnian_king krivo si me razumio....nisam mislio na to da je bio okrunjen Zvonimirovom krunom, iako je to moguće jer se smatra da je i Ladislav Napuljski okrunjen tom krunom...Tvrtko je morao biti nekako okrunjen za hrv. kralja, a sad je li to bila prava krunidba ili samo oblik formalnosti ja nemam pojma...isto tako ti griješiš kad tvrdiš da su Horvati služili bosanskoj kruni..oni jesu načelno služili bosanskom kralju ali ne i kruni, jel da su služili kruni onda bi onaj dio Hrvatske koji je Tvrtko držao bio proglašen bosanskom zemljom i Tvrtko u svojoj tituli ne bi imao "kralj Primorja,Dalmacije i Hrvatske"...ti kad veliš bosanska kruna ja smatram da misliš na bosansku kraljevinu..ili ti pod "krunom" zapravo misliš na kraljevsku osobu?

[Bosnian_King]

ohh croatian crown exist...the Ladislav of Naples was crowned with croatian crown in Zadar 1403.

bosnian_king krivo si me razumio....nisam mislio na to da je bio okrunjen Zvonimirovom krunom, iako je to moguće jer se smatra da je i Ladislav Napuljski okrunjen tom krunom...Tvrtko je morao biti nekako okrunjen za hrv. kralja, a sad je li to bila prava krunidba ili samo oblik formalnosti ja nemam pojma...isto tako ti griješiš kad tvrdiš da su Horvati služili bosanskoj kruni..oni jesu načelno služili bosanskom kralju ali ne i kruni, jel da su služili kruni onda bi onaj dio Hrvatske koji je Tvrtko držao bio proglašen bosanskom zemljom i Tvrtko u svojoj tituli ne bi imao "kralj Primorja,Dalmacije i Hrvatske"...ti kad veliš bosanska kruna ja smatram da misliš na bosansku kraljevinu..ili ti pod "krunom" zapravo misliš na kraljevsku osobu?

Let us speak in english my croatian friend.

The Croatian lands became part of the Bosnian kingdom. It does not mean that those people became "Bosnians". TvrtkoI was not crowned with the "croatian crown" when he became ruler over the "Croatian lands". Why? Because Tvrtko did not became ruler over the Croatian lands by peace. He invaded Croatian.

First he conquered Livno and Duvno. This was the moment when he; his mother and brother became allies again and the Bosnian Ban Tvrtko's army together with the army of his mother invaded the Croatian lands.

So the Bosnian crown/ or rule spread its power over the Croatian lands. When Tvrtko invaded other Croatian lands other Croats joined him because it fitted them at that moment. But Tvrtko I was powerfull enough to fully integrate those lands. There was no need to let himself crown with the Croatian crown because he did not conquer whole croatia but only, let's say 40%. The other part of Croatia was under Hungarian rule.

Not all of this territory he invaded was directly under control of the Bosnian crown. But big territories of Croatia were under direct control of Bosnia. Others had some more autonomy but all of those territories were part of the "Bosnian kingdom".

So we can say that during the period of Tvrtko Croatia was split between two states: "Hungaria and Bosnia". The Croatian nobility were divided. Some of them stayed faithfull to Hungaria and others joined the Bosnian kingdom.

[matija191]

Let us speak in english my croatian friend.

The Croatian lands became part of the Bosnian kingdom. It does not mean that those people became "Bosnians". TvrtkoI was not crowned with the "croatian crown" when he became ruler over the "Croatian lands". Why? Because Tvrtko did not became ruler over the Croatian lands by peace. He invaded Croatian.

First he conquered Livno and Duvno. This was the moment when he; his mother and brother became allies again and the Bosnian Ban Tvrtko's army together with the army of his mother invaded the Croatian lands.

So the Bosnian crown/ or rule spread its power over the Croatian lands. When Tvrtko invaded other Croatian lands other Croats joined him because it fitted them at that moment. But Tvrtko I was powerfull enough to fully integrate those lands. There was no need to let himself crown with the Croatian crown because he did not conquer whole croatia but only, let's say 40%. The other part of Croatia was under Hungarian rule.

Not all of this territory he invaded was directly under control of the Bosnian crown. But big territories of Croatia were under direct control of Bosnia. Others had some more autonomy but all of those territories were part of the "Bosnian kingdom".

So we can say that during the period of Tvrtko Croatia was split between two states: "Hungaria and Bosnia". The Croatian nobility were divided. Some of them stayed faithfull to Hungaria and others joined the Bosnian kingdom.

and some waited the Angevins....

[MeAgain]

I don't see why any of that is realy relevant.

Is there a list of shadow factions someone could show us, or is it still being decided upon?

[Wallachian]

Yeah there's a few variations of the shadow faction list in the thread "Mod Questions". But it's not final.

[MeAgain]

Thank you.

[Visarion]

what does "shadow faction" mean?

[Wallachian]

Shadow factions are basically doubles of an original faction which emerge as a result of low happiness. They were introduced in RTW:BI when they appeared in the two roman empires under the name Eastern Roman Rebels or Western Roman Rebels. They are just as any other emerging faction, can take provinces, engage in diplomacy etc. They're purpose in Tsardoms is to represent the many civil wars which occured in the balkan area in this period. For example Bulgaria will possibly have two shadow factions: The Vidin Tsardom and the Principality of Karvuna.

[MeAgain]

This was actually an idea which (to my knowledge) first appeared in Medieval 1. Once you defeated a faction there was a chance of that faction respawning as an army...a "rebelion"-type thing. Alternatively, there was a situation where if some general became disloyal and your ruler was weak he would split the kingdom in two. You had the choice of either supporting him or the current ruler and the same went with the other generals/captains, creating this division in the kingdom/empire. Once you chose a side the other one would become rebel. I think that's where this idea of "shadow factions" initially originated and was briefly and to a lesser extent revived in BI (as Wallachian mentions). It was a nice feature of original MTW, annoying at times but made the game more enjoyable. I dreadded getting weak kings so much that I had all crappy princes assasinated before they had the chance to screw everything up.

[Visarion]

Thank you guys! very helpful info!