Same-sex marriages in school

[Praeses]

A topic I feel very strong about. According to the Church, homosexuality is a mortal sin. A school system in Mass. (sorry I can't spell the entire name correctly, no offense meant) sent home a "diversity" backpack with a booklet portraying same-sex families. If they are trying to get the mentality across that homosexuality is ok if it makes you happy (liberal viewpoint), then it is way wrong. They are corrupting the minds of young children, encouraging sinning, and while it may be venial now (they aren't aware that it's a sin), it will become mortal once they are fully aware of their actions and consequences. This topic really opens up mortal vs. venial sins, there is a document in teh Vatican library (see Veritatis Splendor ) published by His Holiness Pope John Paul II about the subject. I am very against the idea for the reasons above. Your thoughts?

[ShangTang]

What two consenting adults do is their own choice. Adultery is a sin, yet it is one of the most common reasons of divorce in America. No one berates the unfaithful as much as they do the gays.

[Siblesz]

It's hard to get people to accept that homosexuality is a natural thing that occurs in EVERY mammal species of the planet as well as other animals... It is not a sin... or a mortal sin for that matter. And what defines a sin anyway? Hypocrisy is the foundation of sin.

It's also hard to get people to accept that the bible is all hogwash and that it is completely congruent to the historical ideologies remniscient of the times (an eye for an eye= Mesopotamian influence of Judaism; Stoicism and Buddhism = influence on Christianity).

These ideas of sin and redemption are not original to either Judaism or Christianity or to any other religion. Rather, the structures are the effect of the progress of the mind as civilization developed and as man's grasp to understand abstract ideas was formulated.

Here... read this... and if some of you don't read it because you think it will "corrupt your minds" then don't bother refuting my points.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/paradoxEvolution.html

[Rowan11088]

Well rather than jump on the bashing bandwagon, I will try to empathize with you. I understand what you think the message is behind this "booklet", but you're thinking about it the wrong way. You said this is a "diversity" thing, not a "life choices" or "growing up" theme, so the same-sex families are clearly included to avoid intolerance of EXISTING gay families in the community, not to encourage children to become gay (even though I don't think that's possible) themselves. Otherwise they would I suppose show younger children of the same sex holding hands or some such thing. I hardly think you can say it's wrong to promote tolerance of same-sex families, if there's no endorsement involved; hate the sin, not the sinner my friend.

[the_mango55]

What two consenting adults do is their own choice. Adultery is a sin, yet it is one of the most common reasons of divorce in America. No one berates the unfaithful as much as they do the gays.

Yes, adultery is just as bad as homosexuality, but kids dont get brochures telling them that its ok to cheat on their spouses.

Personally I think that homosexuality is wrong. It shouldnt be illegal, but it should also not be encouraged.

[mongoose]

Somewhat off topic-is that comment about mammals true? perhaps you could be kind enough as to post afew quotes to support that? very interesting to say the least....

[Atheist Peace]

Somewhat off topic-is that comment about mammals true? perhaps you could be kind enough as to post afew quotes to support that? very interesting to say the least....

There are gay animals in zoos all over the country, it's been in the news a few times.

[Siblesz]

Somewhat off topic-is that comment about mammals true? perhaps you could be kind enough as to post afew quotes to support that? very interesting to say the least....

It's all here:
http://www.adherents.com/misc/paradoxEvolution.html

Homosexuality Observed

In modern times the scientific community has observed and thus become aware of widespread non-human homosexuality. Animals from "throughout the animal kingdom" have been observed engaged in same-sex courting and same-sex copulation (Alcock, 1989, p. 525) and "apparent homosexual behavior increases as we ascent [sic] the taxonomic tree toward mammals" (Denniston, 1980) and then towards primates.

Primates: Not surprisingly many observations of non-human homosexuality have been of our fellow primates. Homosexual mounting is, in fact, "common in monkeys" (Edwards & Todd, 1991) and has been described in detail in many species, including rhesus monkeys, stumptail macaques (Mitchell, 1979, pp. 134 &142), Japanese macaques (Mehlman & Chapais, 1988; Mitchell, 1979, p. 416) and others. In a study of stumptail macaques in captivity, 23 of the 143 sexual encounters observed by Chevalier-Skolnikoff were female-female, often resulting in orgasm (Small, 1993, p. 141).
While comparatively less common in "higher" primates (Edwards & Todd, 1991) homosexual mounting has frequently been observed. Male-male mounting in the great apes has been described in chimpanzees, bonobos, mountain gorillas (Wrangham, 1986, p. 367; Yamagiwa, 1987; Yamagiwa, 1992; Edwards & Todd, 1991) and pygmy chimpanzees (Savage & Bakeman, 1978). Male-male mounting in lesser apes (siamang and gibbons) has been observed in Hylobates syndactylus and Hylobates lar (white-handed gibbons) (Edwards & Todd, 1991).
In many primate species same-sex mounting is far more than incidental and should not be dismissed as an unimportant aberration (Small, 1993, p. 143). Female bonobos have been observed to choose genital-genital rubbing with another female over copulation with a male. During one season in which 58 bonobo females were observed, 45 "engaged in homosexual activity" and some were exclusively homosexual (1993, pp. 144-145). Yamagiwa observed 98 homosexual mountings in male mountain gorillas; these were both ventro-ventral and dorso-ventral encounters (Yamagiwa, 1987).

Other Mammals: A proclivity for female-female mounting in cattle has been noticed by dairy farmers who watch for one cow to mount another as an indicator of estrous (meaning the cow is in heat). This technique is called "bulling" (Short, 1984). Burros are known for frequent homosexual mounting (Flinders, 1993). Male-male mounting is typical behavior in mountain sheep (Weinrich, 1982; Denniston, 1980). Homosexual behavior has also been observed in giraffes, rats (Kirsch & Rodman, 1982), dolphins, dogs (West, 1977, p. 116), female red deer (Short, 1984), donkeys, cats, rams, goats, pigs, antelope, elephants, hyenas, rabbits, lions, porcupines, hamsters, mice, and porpoises (Weinrich, 1982).
Homosexual play is probably a universal in juvenile mammals. "Play" activities are normal for juvenile mammals (important in learning and preparation for adult behavior) and "almost all mammals" are "quite indiscriminate as to" sex when they practice sexual mounting (Denniston, 1980). Certainly adult homosexual activity is more pertinent to the possible alteration of actual reproductive success, but the juvenile behavior could be indicative of the innate nature of the sex drive.

Birds: Homosexuality, both male and female, is present in birds also. Homosexual female pairs are sometimes observed in colonies of Western gulls as well as ring-billed and California gulls (Weinrich, 1982; Davies, 1991; Denniston, 1980). In budgerigars (also called undulated or shell parakeets) homosexual female pairs will court and mimic all the behaviors and rituals of typical male-female courtship and copulation except for sperm emission (Kavanau, 1987, pp. 41 &119). Young mallard ducks in contact only with other males during the imprinting period grow up to be exclusively homosexual (West, 1977, p. 43). Among wild zebra finches sexually frustrated males show "female receptive behavior after thwarted copulation attempts and long, intense courtship" (Denniston, 1980). Such mimicry of the stereotypical sex roles and copulatory behaviors of the opposite sex has similarly been observed in other birds, as well as fish, reptiles (Weinrich, 1982; Denniston, 1980) and mammals (especially primates, including humans).

Reptiles: Homosexual behavior is not uncommon in reptiles. Female homosexuality is engaged in by the American chameleon Anolis. A male lizard of the genus Teiidae can copulate, by inserting his hemipenes into the cloaca of a receptive partner, equally well with females or males. "Homosexual copulation stimulates the passive male, so that he may change roles with the previously active male and complete a copulation in turn Among the Iguanidae, ten of twenty-one observed copulations were male homosexual" (Denniston, 1980, p. 31). The purpose of homosexual behavior in some lizards may be territorial (Kirsch & Rodman, 1982). Males may mount other males as a show of dominion over a breeding area in order monopolize the chance to reproduce with females.

Fish: Male guppies will court "each other for weeks while confined in a one-sex group." Their homosexual behavior includes the "nipping of the genital area" typical of male-female courting. Male ten-spined stickleback fish will compete with females to mimic the female role in copulation with dominant males (1980).

Etc.: Brief mention should be accorded the invertebrates: Although it is quite beyond the scope of this paper to discuss in detail, many "lower" vertebrates, especially teleostean fishes, (Chan & O, 1981) and invertebrates (such as marine snails and annelid worms) are neither male nor female when younger and/or are hermaphroditic as adults (meaning individuals switch between being biologically male and female or are both at the same time). Coe wrote: "numerous representatives of nearly every phylum of invertebrates and of every phylum of plants are functionally hermaphroditic" (Denniston, 1980; Dickemann, 1993).
So despite popular non-recognition of the phenomenon, natural history observations have revealed a wide range of homosexuality -- both same-sex genital/sexual interaction as well as sexual preference -- throughout the animal kingdom.

[Rowan11088]

It's all here:
http://www.adherents.com/misc/paradoxEvolution.html

Well before anyone goes changing their entire mindset over this, I'm not sure where this comes from or how trustworthy it is. I've read plenty of scientific papers in high school and college, and this is very informal and seemingly more politically than scientifically aimed. Doesn't mean it isn't true, but take everything with a grain of salt. There is evidence also that homosexual sex in the animal world is purely an expression of power, not to be confused with regular reproductive actions. So the question is still open, and conclusions should not be drawn either way.

[Siblesz]

Well before anyone goes changing their entire mindset over this, I'm not sure where this comes from or how trustworthy it is. I've read plenty of scientific papers in high school and college, and this is very informal and seemingly more politically than scientifically aimed. Doesn't mean it isn't true, but take everything with a grain of salt. There is evidence also that homosexual sex in the animal world is purely an expression of power, not to be confused with regular reproductive actions. So the question is still open, and conclusions should not be drawn either way.

Want a national geographic article on it?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...gayanimal.html

It's not politically-aimed. It's based on scientific evidence.

[mongoose]

Siblesz

That is very interesting, though i still have one more question: Who conducted those studies?

*edit*

hmm, that's odd. assuming thats true, that would make that life sytle less un-natural...

I disagree about the bible being complete hogwash though. i think a watery version would be a good set of morals to live by(no stealing, nokilling, respecting your parents ect) but no stonings

[Siblesz]

Siblesz

That is very interesting, though i still have one more question: Who conducted those studies?

Preston Hunter wrote the article... unfortunately the bibliography is a broken link since the article was written in 1994... it must have been online for ages. Within the article you can see some of the sources of the studies. Example: (Weinrich, 1982). (West, 1977, p. 43).

As for the National Geographic article... well it's national geographic.... a very respected scientific research magazine that bases all of its statements on hard-proof scientific evidence.

And then here's a wikipedia article on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...exual_behavior

Read this part, especially:

The presence of same-sex sexual behavior was not scientifically observed on a large scale until recent times, possibly due to observer bias caused by social attitudes to same-sex sexual behavior. It appears to be widespread among birds and mammals, particularly the apes. [1] Many male penguins that mate for life have been observed in homosexual pairs and refuse to pair with females when given the chance.

One report on sheep cited below states:

"Approximately eight percent of rams exhibit sexual preferences [that is, even when given a choice] for male partners (male-oriented rams) in contrast to most rams, which prefer female partners (female-oriented rams). We identified a cell group within the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus of age-matched adult sheep that was significantly larger in adult rams than in ewes..."

And its sources are:
Bruce Bagemihl: Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity. St. Martin's Press, 1999. ISBN 0312192398

I disagree about the bible being complete hogwash though. i think a watery version would be a good set of morals to live by(no stealing, nokilling, respecting your parents ect) but no stonings

Well ofcourse... its stories are all fantastic... I love reading about how God razes two cities to the ground because of their amoral behavior... disregarding the women and children and killing them as well without remorse. I love how Deuteronomy states that any son that is disobedient to his parents must be stoned to death... Oh! And how about the one of how everyone in the World is completely killed by a flood created by God except Noah, his sons and wife, and his animals.

As for Christianity... yes, it is a very peaceful religion. But look a Buddhism. Look at Stoicism. Look at the cult of Dionysius. All of these religions displayed characteristics that formed the basis of Christianity long before Jesus was ever born. As I said before: "These ideas of sin and redemption are not original to either Judaism or Christianity or to any other religion. Rather, the structures are the effect of the progress of the mind as civilization developed and as man's grasp to understand abstract ideas was formulated."

Am I saying that the Bible is all crap? No. It is a good source of knowlegde for history. But is it written by the hand of God and are its events supreme in accuracy? No... and the only evidence against this statement is based on faith.

[Richard]

it is 'natural' (in mammals anyway) and i have heard cases of confused penguins. my proof you ask? mine and my neighbours dog. But it IS NOT 'normal', as in, most do not do it...and it cannot be 'encouraged', without medical assistance that is not possible

[Atheist Peace]

You're right it isn't normal, because of course heterosexuality is more prominent, and the established norm, that doesn't make it wrong.

[Praeses]

Thanks for respecting my opinion. I just want to add to what I wrote that I kind of vented to counter this "liberalism" that is really wearing me thin. I myself don't follow the Bible word for word as I have taken into account dated meanings and principles. This one however, is one that I think holds true today. I could have also ranted on a number of things, but this particular issue was in the news today. I disagree with the philosophy much more than with the people. I believe people can change, but I really hate the principle of the whole thing. As mongoose said, the bible is a good to follow and a good set of rules to live by when watered down.

Homosexuality was actually traced down to a braincell in a common house fly. By altering one gene, scientists were able to trick the male fly into thinking it was interacting with a female fly when it was doing the opposite. The conclusion I drew from that is homosexuality is not a default natural state, rather an altered state, one that is brought about by a change in brain cells. It may actually be self-modified, meaning training yourself to think a certain way, and there lies the danger in teaching a human that it is "ok". When talking about animals, there are few animals that have similar brain capacity to that of humans. Humans have free will and are capable of making desicions, and if the child is in a same sex marriage, then they may lack the nutrients provided by a mother. Either way, it does have psychological effects on a child, and may have other yet to be discovered health/mental effects.

[Siblesz]

it is 'natural' (in mammals anyway) and i have heard cases of confused penguins. my proof you ask? mine and my neighbours dog. But it IS NOT 'normal', as in, most do not do it...and it cannot be 'encouraged', without medical assistance that is not possible

My point isn't to declare homosexuality the pervading sexual orientation on the planet, but to prove that it is a natural factor in nature. If my point was the first statement then we'd be a world of nutes.
Homesexuality isn't normal at all. But as Atheist Peace said, there's a fine line between normality and morality.

Homosexuality was actually traced down to a braincell in a common house fly. By altering one gene, scientists were able to trick the male fly into thinking it was interacting with a female fly when it was doing the opposite. The conclusion I drew from that is homosexuality is not a default natural state, rather an altered state, one that is brought about by a change in brain cells. It may actually be self-modified, meaning training yourself to think a certain way, and there lies the danger in teaching a human that it is "ok". When talking about animals, there are few animals that have similar brain capacity to that of humans. Humans have free will and are capable of making desicions, and if the child is in a same sex marriage, then they may lack the nutrients provided by a mother. Either way, it does have psychological effects on a child, and may have other yet to be discovered health/mental effects.

Interesting study. I wouldn't say humans have free will and animals don't... but let's not get into that... that's a whole other discussion. What I want to find out is the name and source of this study with the fly. It sounds very interesting.

[Richard]

oh cmon no theres not, we're all just damn filthy apes =)

however i disagree with prasedas statement about it meing "self-modified". that osunds a little far fetched to me

[Mother-Russia]

Even though this topic has already been handled quite well by Siblesz, here is some more scientific fact based evidence that animals do display homosexuality:

Lest you are tempted to believe that all of this is highly unusual and well out of the ordinary, you're in for quite a surprise. Homosexual behavior is not only common, but even more common in other species than in humans. While numbers are hard to come by, there are a few that present some interesting patterns. In ostriches, male homosexuality is much more common than bisexuality, but among mule deer, bisexuality is more common than homosexuality. Among our closest living relatives, the bonobo chimpanzees, few if any are either exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. Indeed, all that have been observed are exclusively permanently bisexual.

Also, a chart follows listing the percentages of homosexuality, heterosexuality, and bisexuality in a number of species. One that stands out specifically, is the galah (both male and female) which exhibits 44% homosexual behavior, and 44% heterosexual behavior, followed by 11% bisexual behavior.

source: Bruce Bahemihl, Ph.D., Biological Exhuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity, St. Martin's Press, 2000, page 35



http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm


As anyone can see, it is clear that homosexuality is indeed displayed in nature. And anti-gay rights supporters or bigots who use the "homosexuality is not natural" argument, are simply wrong.

[RexNecros]

I think is extremely amusing how conservative Christians think…
If you don’t agree with homosexuality; fine just bear with it; if you are a “straight” male then you should not have to worry about, in fact you should be grateful towards gays since they are leaving the competency all to you (more girls to choose from, yey !!) . If you don’t agree with homosexuality, fine you are not the one “going to hell” is the gay guy. Like abortion, if you don’t think abortion is right then never commit an abortion, no one is forcing you to commit it, and just tell your kids you think is wrong for whatever reason you think; the same with homosexuality. All this rules are based pretty much in other cultures; you think God told whoeverthe****hisnameis to write the genesis; the genesis is a plagiarized version of the enuma elish; for f*’s sake, there is even a Celtic goddess portrayed as a Christian saint http://aco.ca/celtic/stbrigid.html . I am not saying religion should be outlawed, I just think everyone should mind their own business unless is hurting someone else, Christians just ignore liberals, liberals just ignore Christians, the government should just let people grant their freedom.
if Christians really want a “bible law” then none of you should have sex till marriage, and if you ever committed a sin like say have dirty thoughts according to Jesus you should blow your brains out since is better if only your brain goes to hell rather than all your body. That is pretty much what makes the Middle East to be in an state of a third world country with all that oil, being ahead of the Europeans they just lost their edge (of course we have to include the Mongolic invasions, but reading about how the Taliban outlawed women from working, education is Afghanistan just stopped when the Taliban took power)

[PandaRegent]

Translation: Don't meddle in my affairs and I won't in yours.
I have a hard time understanding the other sins when God said that there were only ten rules to follow (Ten Commandments).