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Thread: Any Units planned with double mail coats??

  1. #1

    Default Any Units planned with double mail coats??

    I was reading about the crusades and how to stop arrows sometimes units would wear two coats of chain mail?
    Any units planned ??

    I would think it would be almost impossible to move with two coats of mail

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  2. #2

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    How could you see if the model was wearing to layers of chainmail or only one?
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  3. #3

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    you could not, it would be in the description and add to the stats, no arrows could kill these fellas. The model could be a little bulkier if that were possible

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  4. #4

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    unless there were entire units of guys doing that, I don't think it's right to have "double mail coat feudal knights".
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  5. #5
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    Ive never heard about idiots wearing two mails.Much easier and even cheaper wearing plate armor or just chainmail + small steel plates on it.

  6. #6

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    Have a look at the quote below, not sure if it actually happened, I imagnine that this may have been what Richard did on his march to the holy land when his infantry are recorded as looking like porcupines

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    quote from: armies and enemies of the crusades 1096-1291
    by Ian Heath

    Franks against Mongols
    This is based on advice of a shrewd observer, Friar John de Plano Carpini, to the rulers of the West, contained a
    report written after a long sojourn amongst the Mongols in the mid 13 century.
    to start with he stresses the importance of good quality arms and equipment, paticularly recommending good strong
    bows and crossbows, which he says the Mongols particularly fear, the arrows for these to be manufactured in the
    Mongol way so that they are sharp enough to pierce the strongest armour. He also especially recommends long handled
    axes, plus lances with a hook below the head for dragging the Mongols from their saddles, ' for they fall of very
    easily,' but he cautions against ignoring dismounted Mongols since they shoot just as fast on foot as on horseback
    (witness Vochan in 1272 and Salamiyet in 1299)

    Armour should consist of double mail, which arrows from mongol Bows could not easily pierce, plus a helmet
    and any other available armour. Where possible horses too shold be protected against Mongol arrows. Unarmoured or
    less-heavily equipped men are advised to follow the Mongol practice of forming the hind ranks and should shoot overhead. but nowhere is Plano Carpni's respect of Mongol military skill more apparent than in his recommendations for organisation, what follows being no more than imitation with units of 1000, 100 and 10 'organised in the smae manner as the Tartar army.'
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I took the double mail to mean two coats of chain mail, perhaps its just a special type of armour that has more rings.
    Last edited by Destraex; October 20, 2005 at 05:23 AM.

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  7. #7

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    The only thing I could find about double maille (searching for double mail just gives a lot of e-mail related stuff) referred to 6 in 1 style maille, which would mean more links and thus more protection than the standard 4 in 1 maille. Perhaps that is what he meant?

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  8. #8
    Ringeck's Avatar Lauded by his conquests
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    The "double mail" controvercy is difficult. People are still not certain exactly what the term means, as it is not used consistently in medieval manuscripts.

  9. #9
    the_mango55's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Perhaps it is simply a term for mail that is twice as thick, or mail that is "double linked" so that there are two rings going through the adjacent two rings, instead of one going through one. This could be represented with armor upgrades.
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  10. #10
    Ringeck's Avatar Lauded by his conquests
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    No finds of such mail whatsoever. All combat suits are 4-in-1. The 6-in-1's are all decorative or ornamental.

  11. #11
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    They trade fighting ability for safety. Im guessing it was a bad idea. But this was done probaly by ony a few men, so it shouldn't be represented.

  12. #12

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    an interesting page which maintains that double mail may have been more common than you think,

    "In the re-enactment world I have seen 6-in-1 mail which is a possible contender for 'double mail' as in "un hauberk chavez de double maille" from the Chronicle of Flanders: it has the 'lined row' appearance of a lot of 13/14th Century manuscript illustrations! I have also come across 'banded mail' that is mail with leather thong threaded through each row. Apparently this improves the mail's resistance to crushing blows. The only existing example of this type of construction of which I am aware is on the collar of a hauberk from Northern India."

    http://homepage.ntlworld.com/trevor....rmour/mail.htm

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  13. #13

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    ok I have found another reference to double mail to this which may be of interest:

    "1a and b show single rings of mail, rivetted and butted respectively. 1c shows how each individual ring was interlocked with the adjacent four. In 'double' mail, sometimes encountered in the sources, the rings were much thicker so that they overlapped considerably more. Some rings were punched from thin plate, these being used in alternate rows with the more usual rivetted or butted rings. The rings themsleves seem to have varied between 1/16" and 1" in diameter."

    So according to this source their was a super heavy version of mail which had much thicker individual rings and would undoubtedly have been less flexable and much stronger.

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  14. #14
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    I think I read somewhere that some knight's hauberks had thicker layers of chainmail on vital spots, but that must certainly have been more expensive. So I guess that leaves it out for the majority?

  15. #15

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    well, like I said before, unless there were certain nations, regions or time periods were basicly every knight wore double mail, I don't think it would be realistic to make a unit of "double mail knights". Besides, what do RTW's armour upgrades represent if not things like this double mail ?
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  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destraex
    I was reading about the crusades and how to stop arrows sometimes units would wear two coats of chain mail?
    Any units planned ??

    I would think it would be almost impossible to move with two coats of mail
    They didn't wear two coats. They had there standard chainmail and underneath that their alketon and then a very strong fabric that I believe is some form of wool. Weight would not have been an issue just the insane heat in the desert, marching under such conditions. They wore such armour because when they were in a battle or a seige, to many arrow causilties would result the ranks breaking, this armour lowered the casuilties and caused less breaking

    It also depends which Crusade, first second third ect. The last crusades probaly had more advanced armour htan that of the first
    Last edited by Sir Matthais; December 17, 2005 at 10:31 AM. Reason: One more thing
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  17. #17

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    Sir Matthais,
    you are answering something I posted a long time ago. look at my most recent reply

    Love your quote btw, monty python holy grail - excellent use of dismounted knights that thought they were mounted

    Adherbal,
    THats ok, I have moved on from wanting them included in the mod. I just thought it was interesting to add the other reference I found.

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  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Destraex
    Sir Matthais,
    you are answering something I posted a long time ago. look at my most recent reply

    Love your quote btw, monty python holy grail - excellent use of dismounted knights that thought they were mounted

    Adherbal,
    THats ok, I have moved on from wanting them included in the mod. I just thought it was interesting to add the other reference I found.
    I did read your answer, and it is true. My answer is simpkly another "methode that the crusaders had. My method I believe was first or third crusade but probably both! And to all of you English speakign types! I fart in your general direction! Now go away before I taunt you a second time! PPPPPPPPHHHHHHHHGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!! (A funny sound made by the mouth when the lips are pressed together and then blown.
    Under the Noble Patronage of Rome AC.

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