[OUT OF DATE] Hungary Sub-mod v1.1

[Xwhyzed]

@ Kaunitz

There are many words for this "irregulars" and it depends also of the region.
As I wrote above I described the meaning of "Haydut". In croatia and parts of bosnia and serbia there where also irregulars called "Uskoci" (difficult to translate, like people who are uprising, revolting).
Pandurs are the same, it's just a more "harshly" word for Hayduts. If you look at the spanish roster there are a dozen of units who are all the same: irregulars / light infantry


I have a suggestion to you all. What do you think of making a "Balkan-Mod"? There is already a completly finished Greece-Mod. There are people who are working on a Croatia-Mod. Now this thread with a Hungary-Mod. Only Serbia is missing and we can make a complete Balkan-Mod.
Croatia and Hungary would be protectorats of Austria. Serbia and Greece will be the same for the Ottomans.
So the player can choose with which people he wants to play. He can choose if he wants to play as a protectorate of the Austrian-, Ottoman-Empire or if he wants to start an rebellion to free his people (if you want to be in this game independent and you are a protectorate of someone you have to declare war to him). Rumelia and Bosnia should stay normal parts of the Ottoman-Empire, except for we are finding some Bosnian or Macedonian patriots who want to make a mod for this to nations.
For example the Hungaryan player declares war to Austria, than Croatia will declare war to Hungary (the protectorates always help their protector). Hungary could make peace to croatia an Austria, or fight for their freedom etc. thats the decision of the player and the CAI. It won't be easy, but it would be a challenge for the player.

Actually everybody can work on his own mod as so far. At the end we would synchronise the startpos-files so the player only needs one Mod for the CustomCampaign (user-friendly).
I've heard of many (also very famous) modders who have a big interest in modeling units for the Balkans, cause this are very varying multicoloured units with much splendour.
This mod would also be fun for the Austrian and Ottoman players, cause they will get a complete new challenge to manage their protectorates and to beware of rebellions

Good idea, I posted a similar (more global on) in the Minor nations thread yesterday
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=354714

[Michadon]

About the starting regions and the minor/major city problem: I do not if you have to reduce an excisting major city to a minor one, if you want to change a minor into a major. It sounds rather stupid if this is the case (bad mark for CA there). If this is the case, then you either want to change a relatively useless major one, like the one in new spain for example. OR you can simple not give them one and let them conquer one. However, this gives us another problem: the closest major city is: Vienna, Austria. So the first conquest you make as Hungary will turn all of Austria into rebels.

It might thus be best to change a useless major city (new spain or Mexico) into a minor one, and then change a Hungarian held city into a major one. But this might affect Game balance more than a bit.

The 'Balkan mod' does sound interesting though. I find that area somewhat neglected in vanilla and no mods have changed that. It is sad that the map can't be changed to create more or/and more realstic regions. But a coörporation between this 'Hungarian' mod, the 'Croatia' mod and the Greece mod has my support.

[Xwhyzed]

I'll reduce Tunis (Barbary states) a minor city
and make Klausenburg (Transylvania ) a major one.
The reason I'm not making Presburg a major city is that its too close to Vienna

[♔hammeredalways♔]

agreed the proposal to look at mini-campaign type Custom Campaigns is interesting though I would add one word of caution at the beginning, and I do want to be a kill joy, but I will say this at the outset. (I would also add that the calibre of gamers on this forum seems higher and more patient than in some other areas but we cannot know what the future will attract)

This is a game, where we seek to have fun - whilst it has some historical elements in it, it is not an historical simulator. The very nature of the game is that as soon as you start you first move history goes out the window, I am also mindful that in some areas of the TWC site nationalistic pride and fervour seems to make people very irrational, equally I whilst not an expert I am aware of issues in the region. (as there are in others)

So I would be more than happy to look at the feasability of some wider campaign (like a mini campaign as proposed yesterday) but be clear that this is fictional and there will be units included that would without doubt have some creative license and we will not let it generate into a mud slinging contest.

If people arehappy to proceed on that basis I would propose to leave the thread here for a period and invite people who have an interest to log such in the thread, and we can then move to the sub-mod forum after a suitable period

[Xwhyzed]

agreed the proposal to look at mini-campaign type Custom Campaigns is interesting though I would add one word of caution at the beginning, and I do want to be a kill joy, but I will say this at the outset. (I would also add that the calibre of gamers on this forum seems higher and more patient than in some other areas but we cannot know what the future will attract)

This is a game, where we seek to have fun - whilst it has some historical elements in it, it is not an historical simulator. The very nature of the game is that as soon as you start you first move history goes out the window, I am also mindful that in some areas of the TWC site nationalistic pride and fervour seems to make people very irrational, equally I whilst not an expert I am aware of issues in the region. (as there are in others)

So I would be more than happy to look at the feasability of some wider campaign (like a mini campaign as proposed yesterday) but be clear that this is fictional and there will be units included that would without doubt have some creative license and we will not let it generate into a mud slinging contest.

If people arehappy to proceed on that basis I would propose to leave the thread here for a period and invite people who have an interest to log such in the thread, and we can then move to the sub-mod forum after a suitable period

Yes it should be pure fun. I want to create this mod to make the game more colorful and challenging not to cause irritation.

The merging of the 3 mods (Croatia, Greece, Hungary) would be wonderful and the only issue I can think of so far is the major/minor city question.

[Lexandro81]

agreed the proposal to look at mini-campaign type Custom Campaigns is interesting though I would add one word of caution at the beginning, and I do want to be a kill joy, but I will say this at the outset. (I would also add that the calibre of gamers on this forum seems higher and more patient than in some other areas but we cannot know what the future will attract)

This is a game, where we seek to have fun - whilst it has some historical elements in it, it is not an historical simulator. The very nature of the game is that as soon as you start you first move history goes out the window, I am also mindful that in some areas of the TWC site nationalistic pride and fervour seems to make people very irrational, equally I whilst not an expert I am aware of issues in the region. (as there are in others)

So I would be more than happy to look at the feasability of some wider campaign (like a mini campaign as proposed yesterday) but be clear that this is fictional and there will be units included that would without doubt have some creative license and we will not let it generate into a mud slinging contest.

If people arehappy to proceed on that basis I would propose to leave the thread here for a period and invite people who have an interest to log such in the thread, and we can then move to the sub-mod forum after a suitable period

/signed

[Michadon]

(I would also add that the calibre of gamers on this forum seems higher and more patient than in some other areas but we cannot know what the future will attract)

What do you mean by this? I'm not quit sure what it says (I'm no native English speaker).

But I agree on the fun factor and I do completely agree on the fact that after your fisrt move, historic realisticness is imposible to achieve, because you already changed it by your different actions. Also, the Ai never does the sime twice, so true historic realism is impossible. It is nice to have a certain hostoric context to play in though, so finding at least some 'true hungarian' units to put in the unit roster (if only because of their names to preserve game balance, but this could be done for every faction and has been done, to some degree) would be nice.

If it is possible to work together with the people from the croatia and greece mods I would suggest to do so. But don't add t much nations, because there will be to many. Of course: the nations did exsist, but the ottomans ruled the area (and later the Austrians), so hungary and croatia could very well be implemented, but no more then those! Concerning the rest of europe: In the northern part, with Sweden and Denmark already short of regions, no more nations could be added (except perhaps Norway, which spanws sometimes but I advise against it). Western europe: Perhaps scotland or Ireland, but this might unbalance GB a bit, make it too weak. The german regions have nations a plenty (saxony, westphalia, hanover, wruttemberg, Bavaria) so no more needed. But the rest of europe is not a concern for now.

As somewhat chaoticaly said above: The balkan is the only region of the world were new playable nations can be created bu with care! There is not much room.

Oh, and xwhyzed, it is a good idea indeed to not change pressburg into a Major city because its indeed almost next to Vienna. Two majors next to eachother is a bit weird. What to think if you controlled them both!

Sorry for the long post.

[♔hammeredalways♔]

Hi Michadon - simply put the gamers on the Darth forum are here to play and enjoy the game, post good insights, suggestions and feedback. Some other parts of the site seem to be over run with people banging the drum and ranting to the point that I am not certain that they actually not what they are ranting about.

So just making it clear from the outset that we will not let the thread get hijacked

Agreed I think a balance of historical based units and some what if (like the guard unit that Kaunitz outlined) is good, after we don't want to fight with milita and irregulars
I am working with ♔Tsar♔ on the Croatia MOD now, and am very familiar with the Greek MOD, POM who did the Brit MOD, German States MOD and currently working on the Italian States has also mentioned getting involved in a Balkan MOD.

I like long posts

[Xwhyzed]

So far I am unable to make Hungary playable :S
followed husserlTW-s tutorial and Hungary does appear on the faction list but crashes at the loading screen

However if I use Hungarian mod V0.5 by derringer it works well.
Compared his startpos file with husserlTW instructions and they are totally different so I dont know why it is working

[Michadon]

We wont let this get hijacked, but I don't think it will be, because those who hijack will rant about how they defeated this and that and so on. They won't be interested in this.

But to get back on topic: Xwhyzed: Perhaps you can use the startpos from this mod from derringer and change it so it fits your needs. And later, if all the simple things work out and it is playable, we can start discussing the unit roster and regions more easily (discuss, conclude and implement. Where as now it will be: discuss, conclude and finding a freaking way to implement it). Anyways.

Other subjects to be discussed:
- Diplomacy: who are they allied to, who are Hungary's enemies, who are friendly, indifferent and so on (is it a protectorate?).
- Starting troops: what troops do they start with? There was a rebellion: will theyhave a full stack? What kind of troops are in it? Does this not affect early game balance?
- Starting funds: This is an easy one: just start with what the rest start with.
- Research: double meaning: 1) Who can do research about Hungary during the tinme period? and 2) how about a school? Is there one in Transylvania (starting region) or will there be one in Hungary?

The starting region got me onto a question just now: If they start with only Transylvania, this will be were their capitol is. Even after they captured Hungary. Would it not be weird that Hungary's capitol is not in Hungary? My guess is that they will have to start with two regions.

[Xwhyzed]

But to get back on topic: Xwhyzed: Perhaps you can use the startpos from this mod from derringer and change it so it fits your needs.

Other subjects to be discussed:
- Diplomacy: who are they allied to, who are Hungary's enemies, who are friendly, indifferent and so on (is it a protectorate?).
- Starting troops: what troops do they start with? There was a rebellion: will theyhave a full stack? What kind of troops are in it? Does this not affect early game balance?
- Starting funds: This is an easy one: just start with what the rest start with.
- Research: double meaning: 1) Who can do research about Hungary during the tinme period? and 2) how about a school? Is there one in Transylvania (starting region) or will there be one in Hungary?

The starting region got me onto a question just now: If they start with only Transylvania, this will be were their capitol is. Even after they captured Hungary. Would it not be weird that Hungary's capitol is not in Hungary? My guess is that they will have to start with two regions.

Yes that is exactly what I did, used and modified the working startpos. So far it's playable with Hungary starting as a protectorate of Austria. They didn't rebel yet (so game can start from 1700.)

Starting with 2 regions, no university but there are 2 villages with no buildings so player can build a university on one of them. I could put a university there from the start but I want to make it harder
Since I'm Hungarian I know a lot about this time period

Army: 1-2 line infantry and székely milita, maybe 1-2 hussars

[Xwhyzed]

Now I need to make Klausenburg a major city and add the starting army.

Then we can start making the unit roster (currently they have Austrias)

[Michadon]

Good news that it is working already. I wished I could help but don't know anything about modding and am busy wioth my exams.

However: I think we have two options here:
1) Copy an already exsiting roster and change the names of units to Hungarian names and thus keep a balanced game (easy option)
2) Make an comepletely new roster consisting of some excisting units and newly created units (perhaps some oranamentum ones)(hard option)

I think, for any first release, we have to use the first option, and then work on a new roster for later releases.

About the buildings in villages: It is alright to keep them empty at the start, but you have to compensate for the cost of building the buildings (about 3000/4000 per building) and missed income in the first two or three turns. If you don't do this, Hungary will start with a disadvantage.

[♔hammeredalways♔]

Hi Xwhyzed/Michadon - the first part I would suggest is to look the existing unit roster and the models (don't worry about colours) and match them off against the images you have already found.

[Xwhyzed]

yes I checked some existing models
I can change colors and textures with ease
Found some good starting models like pandurs to make Székely infantry and hajdú infantry
but I'm unskilled with making models

[♔hammeredalways♔]

model making is quite difficult and the whole process in ETW is quite restrictive (unless you are one of the superskinners) but there are a variety of models that allow some flexibility, did you get the mesh convertor working because in Milkshape you apply base skins to models to see how they fit/interact before you start to tweak colours and uniforms

[Xwhyzed]

did some tests, played 15 turns and fought a little against the ottomans
there are problems:

1. because of using another mod all the starting armies are small compared to DMUC
now changing all the armies of the game would take a lot of time (waste of time actually)

Would be a lot better to use HusserITW'sAll Factions Playable Mod v2.0of which is already included with DMUC and starting armies are upgraded by hip63. If I could only get it to work instead of CTD

2. for some reason the morale is pretty low in the 2 starting regions gona try to change it somehow

[Xwhyzed]

model making is quite difficult and the whole process in ETW is quite restrictive (unless you are one of the superskinners) but there are a variety of models that allow some flexibility, did you get the mesh convertor working because in Milkshape you apply base skins to models to see how they fit/interact before you start to tweak colours and uniforms

Yes I managed to get it working
also fetched 3dsmax from my brother just to be safe

[Michadon]

Changing the starting armies to full DMUC size is indeed a waste of time. The second option you mentioned is more viable.
I feel real stupid not be able to do anything to help, because of my lack of time and skill, both of which I will have in the future (hopefully).

Anyway: I hope to have some new ideas tomorrows.

[Xwhyzed]

Finally i got my version working