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Thread: Most powerful superpower in history?

  1. #101
    jackwei's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    In a one-on-one contest with WW2 Germany and the US, neither would be victorious. The US couldn't hope to establish a front in Europe and Germany couldn't hope to establish a front in North America.

    Japan was no match for the US, and probably wouldn't have performed very well in a one on one contest with the British or French Empires.

    It still stands that it took the USSR, UK and USA combined to bring down the Third Reich, and it wasn't an easy fight to win. Had Germany properly prepared for the Russian winter they may have been able to continue their advance.

    Indeed, if it weren't for Hitler interfering in Barbarossa the Red Army may have been smashed.

    The US certainly emerged as one (of the two: USSR) leading powers in the world from the ashes of the Second World War, but that's because Germany was a smouldering ruin. It's my opinion that Germany was the single most powerful contender in the war.
    Yes but the facts remain is the United States could sustain itself in a war longer then Germany since its Industrial and economic might was the biggest in the world and at the time the US had a stronger navy then Germany too and possibly air force too later in the war. I know Germany was the axis strongest power in WWII but the facts remain the United States would last longer in a war and would have more manpower then Germany.

    Germany had projects on Chemical Weapons, jets, nuclear and so on, but the US had the Atomic Bombs that would settle all things. Also the United States could fund the all its allies and still be ok and yes the Germans had the best Army in WWII that reminds me of Napoleon's Grande armee.

    Japan did quite well and basically neutrallized the British Empire in the Pacific and dominated that theatre and the shock at pearl harbour was well planned. Some can say if the Japanese navy capitalized on their victory at Pearl Harbour and went towards the US West Coast then who knows what would of happened.

  2. #102
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    To be fair JP: most nuclear nations would be capable of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jackwei View Post
    Yes but the facts remain is the United States could sustain itself in a war longer then Germany since its Industrial and economic might was the biggest in the world and at the time the US had a stronger navy then Germany too and possibly air force too later in the war. I know Germany was the axis strongest power in WWII but the facts remain the United States would last longer in a war and would have more manpower then Germany.

    Germany had projects on Chemical Weapons, jets, nuclear and so on, but the US had the Atomic Bombs that would settle all things. Also the United States could fund the all its allies and still be ok and yes the Germans had the best Army in WWII that reminds me of Napoleon's Grande armee.

    Japan did quite well and basically neutrallized the British Empire in the Pacific and dominated that theatre and the shock at pearl harbour was well planned. Some can say if the Japanese navy capitalized on their victory at Pearl Harbour and went towards the US West Coast then who knows what would of happened.
    The US had a stronger navy and airforce because the Kriegsmarine had been shattered by the RN and Hitler had went to a U-Boat campaign to try and starve out the British Isles. Again, the USAF was stronger because the Luftwaffe was broken by the Battle of Britain and Barbarossa.

    Germany also had an atomic bomb project that was halted by contraints on German industry after Allied bombing raids and their heavy water supply being sent to the bottom of a lake by Norwegian commandos and their production facility sabotaged by commandos as well.

    The Japanese did well in the war but thats because 1. The US entered the war late, and the British and French were rather occupied elsewhere and 2. The US started the war on a suprise attack that caused serious damage to the Fleet. By then Japan was heavily entrenched across the Pacific and, despite this, the US kept up a steady advance and shattered the Japanese Fleet quite early on.

    Had the French or British Empires been able to concentrate their power against Japan (who was far weaker than Germany) I doubt they'd have done so well.


    The US may have more Industrial might than the Reich, but they had enough Industrial capacity to sustain a war. Unless a massive disaster occured which cost the Wermacht extremely dearly in material, German industry would be capable of running replacements.

    You're still ignoring the fact that it took the combined might of the other 3 (or 4 if France is counted) superpowers to take the Reich down. Took several years as well.
    Last edited by Poach; May 09, 2010 at 06:36 PM.

  3. #103
    JP226's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    this whole stupid notion that, well in a given time the so and so power ruled the world more to a degree than blah blah blah.

    Well, seeing as no country on the face of this planet has been as proportionately rich as the US is and seeing as we can flood so much cash as a percentage of world GDP that other countries now and then can't, odds are we own. Unless you are racist and think X people are somehow genetically superior, odds are the level of equipment training, logistics had yet to been applied to a global fighting force to the degree it was til the US military.

    THis is the first time in history countries have together to form not military alliances, but economics one to combat a single country. That has to say something.

    To be fair JP: most nuclear nations would be capable of that.
    not in 24 hours. And then not to our degree.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  4. #104
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    Personally, I think the Third Reich was the most powerful superpower in history: it took the combined might of all of the above just to bring her down, and even at that she was nearly winning at one point.
    That however is a function of the vary good operational doctrine of the German army and the fact that Germany more or less was regional in focus - Germany could afford both that army and the navy needed to really influence events world wide.
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  5. #105
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    That however is a function of the vary good operational doctrine of the German army and the fact that Germany more or less was regional in focus - Germany could afford both that army and the navy needed to really influence events world wide.
    Though it was regional in focus because the USSR was Hitler's main target: this didn't require any expeditionary warfare. Had Germany taken Russia down in quick order, rather than getting bogged down in winter and opening up another 2 fronts on themselves, their industry could be quickly turned to producing vast fleets.

    They had an impressive fleet in the First World War, they had the ability and knowhow to produce a powerful and well-led Fleet.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    Though it was regional in focus because the USSR was Hitler's main target: this didn't require any expeditionary warfare. Had Germany taken Russia down in quick order, rather than getting bogged down in winter and opening up another 2 fronts on themselves, their industry could be quickly turned to producing vast fleets.

    They had an impressive fleet in the First World War, they had the ability and knowhow to produce a powerful and well-led Fleet.
    still illustrates the limits of their resources. The US focused on Germany AND Japan. Had a massive navy AND Army. Our military was 12 + million at it's height and we never really scratched our man power. Couple us and the UK, how on earth could Germany ever hope to compete with a population and land size not much larger than modern day texas? I don't care how good their work effort is, some factors are limiting.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  7. #107
    Poach's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    The US, a single superpower, was fighting one superpower and one regional power. Germany, a single superpower, was fighting 3 superpowers.

    The majority of US men and resources went to Europe, as did the majority of British resources, and all of Russia's resources.

    In a one on one fight with the US, neither would be able to gain the upper hand as neither could hope to establish themselves on the other's continent. Surely the mere fact that it took the 3 of us several years to bring Germany down shows that, against any single one of us, she'd be a match if not better?

    Edit: 1940 Germnay had a population of around 90 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany) whilst the US had 123 million (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940_United_States_Census). The US didn't have as much of an edge as she does today in terms of raw people power.
    Last edited by Poach; May 09, 2010 at 06:53 PM.

  8. #108

    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    I think the Soviet Union or the United States could have outlasted Germany on their own. It would have just been much more costly and longer lasting. It took us years together to wear them down because they were on the defense-- and even if you're weak but dug in it's very hard to be on the offensive consistently and to do so quickly. I think of the three major powers fighting Germany only Britain could not have done it alone. Simply not enough manpower or resources.

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    The USSR would've folded early if it wasn't for the US Lend-Lease act. Was it Zhukov that said US materials were fundamental to the Red Army's continued operation?

    As I've said on the US: neither could dent each other. The Atlantic would've remained a battleground for decades. German and US industry were both capable of pumping out huge fleets and they're not particularly costly in manpower.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    US aid to USSR was more in our factor goods and logistics that allowed russia to produce tanks instead of trucks. Without lend lease who knows what would have happened. Taking moscow would and could have pout a very different spin on things.

    Although that's interesting about the population, how is it that Germany has dropped 10 million people in the past 60 years? That's unheard of. SUre they are not counting occupied territiories? USSR had about 150 million and could trade lives 3 or 4 to 1.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  11. #111
    jackwei's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poach View Post
    To be fair JP: most nuclear nations would be capable of that.



    The US had a stronger navy and airforce because the Kriegsmarine had been shattered by the RN and Hitler had went to a U-Boat campaign to try and starve out the British Isles. Again, the USAF was stronger because the Luftwaffe was broken by the Battle of Britain and Barbarossa.

    Germany also had an atomic bomb project that was halted by contraints on German industry after Allied bombing raids and their heavy water supply being sent to the bottom of a lake by Norwegian commandos and their production facility sabotaged by commandos as well.

    The Japanese did well in the war but thats because 1. The US entered the war late, and the British and French were rather occupied elsewhere and 2. The US started the war on a suprise attack that caused serious damage to the Fleet. By then Japan was heavily entrenched across the Pacific and, despite this, the US kept up a steady advance and shattered the Japanese Fleet quite early on.

    Had the French or British Empires been able to concentrate their power against Japan (who was far weaker than Germany) I doubt they'd have done so well.


    The US may have more Industrial might than the Reich, but they had enough Industrial capacity to sustain a war. Unless a massive disaster occured which cost the Wermacht extremely dearly in material, German industry would be capable of running replacements.

    You're still ignoring the fact that it took the combined might of the other 3 (or 4 if France is counted) superpowers to take the Reich down. Took several years as well.
    I ain't Ignoring the fact that it took all those allies to bring down the third reich, but it doesn't mean that the United States didn't have capabilites to compete with Wermacht, as they would been able to replace their manpower more easier than the Germans.

    How long could German Industries sustain the bombings from the allies as that would slow down production, but the point is the United States suppled its allies and managed to fight a war of two fronts and had a huge army too like Germany.

    I do agree the wermacht having the strongest armies in WWII and how close they were to defeating Russia by capturing Moscow and Stalingrad, however since they couldn't stop the allies controlling the air and the Royal Navy ruling the waves defeat would only be a matter of time, since the United States could keep sending Reinforcements larger then Germany and then overwhelm them.

    Industrial and Economic might with Manpower and control not just on land, but sea and air mattered in Modern Warfare and because they didn't control them and weren't prepared for Russian winter. If Germany was the had more economic and industrial might then the US then i would understand and had be able to fund its expensive projects then probably i would agree with you.

    The Wermacht is more similar to Napoleon's Grande armee in terms of organization, equipment, commanders and so on and defeating many of the Great powers and it took a large alliance to defeat them both since at the time they conquered continental europe.

    I am not saying Germany wasn't the most powerful nation in WWII, but like i said the United States is capable of building larger armies then the germans and equiping them all without allies or auxarilles as helping them. As Earlier Germany had the strongest army in the war, until the United States started took of its gloves reveal to the world its military and economic might when it entered the war.

    Why do you think the UK tried pushing the US to enter the war, because of its resources, industrial might, wealth and manpower!!

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    JP:

    Germany in those days was substantially bigger than it is today. Areas that are now firmly part of and populated by neighbouring countries were German at that point. Look up Germany's borders pre-WW1 for some sort of idea on demographics. It also included Austria, which had been annexed into Germany as they're essentially both Germanic nations.

    Further to this, Germany's population was decimated during the war: the German male population of fighting age was far, far harder hit than any other fighting nation (in relative terms) and they then lost a lot of land after the war which today is in different countries.

    The USSR could trade lives because Germany was not focused on them: millions of German soldiers were stationed in Norway, France and the Low Countries to dissuade the British from trying to open a second front, and later to obviously fight on the French and Italian fronts. A large amount of German manpower went to the East (indeed, the Red Army broke the back of the Wermacht), but not all of it. The Russians had much more men and concentrated almost all on the Germans.

    Jack:

    We've been over manpower: The US didn't have that much of an advantage. In a one on one against the US, German Industry wouldn't be getting bombed, the war would never leave the Atlantic. Their industry wouldn't be geared towards the Army and as such the Kriegsmarine would be able to actually field a proper fleet rather than U-Boats. The USN and Kriegsmarine would be knocking chunks out of each other for years.

    Germany's loss in Russia was threefold: 1. The US supplied Russian forces, atleast indirectly. 2. The Wermacht did not properly prepare for winter, allowing the Red Army to regroup and causing logistical chaos. 3. Hitler meddled with the war regularly rather than leaving it to the High Command. Stalingrad, for example.

    I'm not arguing the US had impressive manpower and industry, it's what made them world number one after the war, but German wartime industry was equally as impressive.
    Last edited by Poach; May 09, 2010 at 07:18 PM.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    THe US navy alone maintained 70% of the world's navy tonnage in 1945. Never mind our airforce, we did own the air and the only prop plane capable of dealing with the few german jets... the, damn beer made me forget the name of those planes, me242? any how the mustangs could achieve speeds faster than the ms whatever, on the right angle ofcourse.

    The USSR could trade lives because Germany was not focused on them: millions of German soldiers were stationed in Norway, France and the Low Countries to dissuade the British from trying to open a second front, and later to obviously fight on the French and Italian fronts. A large amount of German manpower went to the East (indeed, the Red Army broke the back of the Wermacht), but not all of it. The Russians had much more men and concentrated almost all on the Germans.
    Germany didn't really lose any territory in the war, or atleast what we know germany as today. The Russian and US armies by themselves dwarfed the German army.

    edit: and let me add, not only their manpower fielded never reached either the US or Russia, thier logistics was largely provided by horse and buggy. OUrs was ford trucks, ours and the USSR thanks to the lend lease. THat's flat out logistics and economic power that Germany just didn't have.
    Last edited by JP226; May 09, 2010 at 07:25 PM.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    me262, that's it
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    According to http://www.feldgrau.com/stats.html and http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004598.html, the US Armed Forces alone were bigger in 1945 but that was after the Wermacht had been decimated. The mid-war era Wermacht (though those statistics include non-soldiers) was huge. That was, ofcourse, before they started taking heavy casualties and so had ample manpower reserves.

    Territory lost by Germany: All of Austria, Alsace-Lorraine, all of East Prussia, areas around the Czech Republic.

  16. #116
    jackwei's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    About Japan they were a Great Power since 1900 after they defeated Russians and take in to mind they were fighting different Chinese Governments, British India, New Zealand, Australia and India at the sametime.

    The Japanese Empire part in WWII is probably one of the most underrated when people take about WWII as well know its axis ally Germany made Europe and Russia almost completely tremble at its fleet, but Japan occupied most of the east and almost made the US tremble after Pearl Harbour with the control of the pacific.

    The Empire of Japan and Nazi Germany as allies almost made the world fall into their hands!!

    Back to my point with the United States and produce any facts that would make Germany be more capable to sustain the war longer then them and out do the US in every particular area except the tanks?? United States Industrial Power was far ahead of everyone in the world by 1940s and could produce way more then anyone in the war.
    Last edited by jackwei; May 09, 2010 at 07:34 PM.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    Alsace lorraine was french, Czech was czech. That was like saying france was german.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    Japan was reliant on the US for petrol. Once the US stopped giving them petrol life became extremely difficult for them and once they were at war with the US they suffered serious supply shortages.

    JP: Alsace-Lorrain had considerable German populations in those days, and I said "areas around" the Czech Republic, some of their border regions had German populations as well. East Prussia still stands, it was entirely German, but no longer. Edit: Austria too.
    Last edited by Poach; May 09, 2010 at 07:38 PM.

  19. #119
    jackwei's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    Despite what happened in WWII doesn't make Germany the most powerful Superpower and did you take into an account the lifespan of the Nazi German Empire??

    Yeah Germany in WWII was like Napoleonic France reborn in a new form.

  20. #120
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    Default Re: Most powerful superpower in history?

    Jack, stop being so narrowminded:

    I believe Germany was the most powerful because it took the other 3 world powers to reduce her to ruin. We know she was defeated, and we know she was short lived. It is my opinion that during her short lifespan, she demonstrated herself to be the most militarily powerful nation (in relative terms, obviously, gogo ICBMs!) ever to appear on the world stage.

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