No Frisians?

[Dirty Chai]

Man, There's even a good spot for them.

[Aethelstan]

"Man", I like your polite way of asking ... ahm .. stating and how much work you put in such a single post.

Actually the frisians are one of the recent faction-additions as you would have known if you read through newer posts.

They still need more research - so if you can contribute something?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I can contribute here, I'm using them in my mod so If you need (later on) I can provide some unique unit models.
The frisians were a romanised Tribe on the upper rhine frontier, who were fierce in battle and respected opponets by the romans. I'll PM you and Rio more

[Deutschland]

I underdstand the frisian lands were never under control of the romans since the great crisis of the 3 century... I once read the lands were lost to rome these days. (Maybe there was something like a formal control but the roman way of live never managed to get settled there)

Maybe the book was wrong. Its main argument was that the frankish punderes destroyed the roman latifundii which were the main promoters of roman culture ...

[Riothamus]

Informative online sites

Fryslan Side - a popular, well-known, and informative Frisian history site, full of information.
Medieval Studies - (mainly Frisian) - An excellent source of information on medieval Frisian history - includes topics like medieval law (including a translation of the Lex Frisionum).Anglo-Saxon Heritage - Lots of information on the Anglo-Saxons in heathen times. Links to Germanic tribes, including the Frisians.History of Groningen - An excellent, informative and well-researched site - Groningen was orginally part of ancient Frisia and continued to maintain many Frisian links and folkways even after reverting to the Dutch counts.Fries Museum - Costumes, information on Leeuwarden's WW2 spy Mata Hari , a famous silver collection....Tresoar - Both the Buma library and the Fries literary museum have merger with Tresoar to provide a very thorough library of information Lots of information of Frisian authors and documents, a good starting place for historical research.


http://www.i-friesland.com/links/history.htm
Frisia in the Dark Ages

The next two hundred years saw huge migrations and the Germanic peoples began to form their own states. The main Germanic tribes in Western Europe were the Jutish, Saxon, Frankish, Burgondish, Goth, Vandals, and Frisians.
The Frisians were early empire-builders among the scattered tribes of the Dark Ages and by the sixth century were the most coherent and prosperous tribe among the Germanic people, controlling an area stretching from northern Jutland in Denmark to Flanders in Belgium. Most of inland Europe was in those days impassable due to poor roads and lawlessness, and the Frisians dominated sea-going trade, ranging as far a field as the Baltics, Russia, Scandinavia, and England. Indeed, the North Sea was then known as Mare Frisicum.
Trade was mainly Frisian cloth, slaves, herring from the rich banks off the coast of Sweden, and timber from the Baltic region. While most of the rest of Europe was operating a barter system, the Frisian traders used a silver currency, called sceats. These were gained through interaction with Vikings and probably minted in England and Friesland as well.
This Golden Age of Frisia lasted until the end of the 600s but the Frankish empire (present-day France and part of Germany) was an ever-present rival and threat. Clovis had united the Franks and converted to Christianity in 496 and the Pope in Rome had blessed them as heirs to the Roman Empire.
Frisia captured Utrecht and Dorestad, which formed the northern border of the Frankish empire, on Clovis’ death in 511. But in 628 the Frankish king Dagobert defeated a combined Saxon and Frisian force, gained Utrecht back, and established a church there to start converting the heathen Frisians.
The most famous Frisian king, Redbad, defeated Charles “The Hammer” Martel in the early 700s, rid the Frisian empire of the church, and at his death in 719 left a pagan Frisia of renown. But Frisia’s glory was short-lived and Martel defeated and killed Redbad’s son Hrodbad in 734 and incorporated the Frisian empire into the Frankish.
The Frisians would play a leading role on the world stage no longer, but slowly sink into obscurity. Amazingly they managed to preserve a distinct identity and incredible independence.
East Frisia, which is in present-day northern Germany, remained a free fragment of the empire until conquered by Charlemagne in 785. The great Frankish leader formed the first strong, centralized government in early medieval Europe. He codified the laws of all the conquered people. The Frisians produced the Lex Frisonium, which is fascinating for the picture it presents of a people in a state of flux, caught between the ancient pagan ways and the new Catholic creed taught by missionaries like Liudger and Boniface.
The Carolingian empire started to fragment with the death of Charlemagne and by 840 century the Franks were forced to grant Friesland to the Danes as a feudal property. But by the end of the century the Frisians murdered the Danish King Godfried and evicted the Danes from their territory. Smaller Viking raids would continue for another couple of hundred years. In 925 the Frisians accepted the rule of Charlemagnian counts and the rule of these counts continued until the early 1100s.

Unique units:
Frisian Aethling and Frisian Uthere




ROG Descrition:Frisian Noble(Aethling)
The Frisii were highly respected by their former roman neighbours, so one can rightfully speculate that the Frisian noblemen, heading a tribal warrior society, must have been truely impressive examples of their people. As former northern Germanic foederati and akin to the continental Saxons, the Frisians adapted a certain deal of Roman tactics, but it is very likely that the nobility, as a warrior elite by itself, kept more ancient fighting styles.


ATW Description:Frisian Uthere
atw Frisian warriors learned a great deal from their federal annexation by Rome. The were probably the first Germanics to see Roman service in Britain. It was through their communications that the north learnt of the enemies of Roman Britian, the quality of the land and of its military. The abilities and experience of Frisian troops in federal service paved the way for the rise of Germanic supremacy in Britain and the creation of England. These warriors combine their experience from their homeland environment as well as a Romanised military tradition that was used to fighting all kinds of opponents.


See ROG Frisians:
Ruins Of Glory (RoG) (BI)

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Frisians had been living on roman borders long before the other tribes, they first made contact around 28 AD, in a treaty to avoid conquest. But in AD 44, they hanged the tax collector and defeated roman forces in the battle of Baduhennawood. Tacitus wrote about them and a new treaty that was signed in AD 69, and were semi romanized through contact with their southern sister tribe the frisiavones which were conquered in caesar's gallic campaigns. Between 250-290 they were mentioned as pirates in raiding fleets attacking britan by Contantinus Chlorus. The earliest mention of an independent frisian state is in a document written in 678, and they were a semi indipendent semi romanized kingdom during the fall of the roman empire, and posed no real threat to the romans, as Aetius may have even drawn on them as a rescource to fight attila. The frisian kingdom survived the conquests of charlemagne, and even went on to participate in the first crusade. The Kingdom of Frisia Finally dissappeared around the same time as the fall of the roman empire, in the 15th century.

Because they are semi romanized it would be a good Idea to give them some roman style units.
BTW excellent unique units, in my opinion a combination of Frankish, DoS, and Anglo-Saxon Units would be best, with the unique units and maybe a touch of Celtic

the frisian kingdom in 511:

[Riothamus]

The Frisians had been living on roman borders long before the other tribes, they first made contact around 28 AD, in a treaty to avoid conquest. But in AD 44, they hanged the tax collector and defeated roman forces in the battle of Baduhennawood. Tacitus wrote about them and a new treaty that was signed in AD 69, and were semi romanized through contact with their southern sister tribe the frisiavones which were conquered in caesar's gallic campaigns. Between 250-290 they were mentioned as pirates in raiding fleets attacking britan by Contantinus Chlorus. The earliest mention of an independent frisian state is in a document written in 678, and they were a semi indipendent semi romanized kingdom during the fall of the roman empire, and posed no real threat to the romans, as Aetius may have even drawn on them as a rescource to fight attila. The frisian kingdom survived the conquests of charlemagne, and even went on to participate in the first crusade. The Kingdom of Frisia Finally dissappeared around the same time as the fall of the roman empire, in the 15th century.

Because they are semi romanized it would be a good Idea to give them some roman style units.
BTW excellent unique units, in my opinion a combination of Frankish, DoS, and Anglo-Saxon Units would be best, with the unique units and maybe a touch of Celtic

the frisian kingdom in 511:

Please cite your source..

Yes..Certainly a strong Romanized and Angli-Saxon influence

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisians
sorry. But Wikipedia is my primary quick answer scource, but I do like more reliable scources better. (I have a friend who mangled an entire wikipedia article because you used to be able to just edit it whenever and however you want) A map of the Frisian in game starting position would be useful for this thread...

[Riothamus]

Please dont double post!

-Edit or amend the last post please!

[Riothamus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisians
sorry. But Wikipedia is my primary quick answer scource, but I do like more reliable scources better. (I have a friend who mangled an entire wikipedia article because you used to be able to just edit it whenever and however you want) A map of the Frisian starting position would be useful for this thread...

-Not saying theirs anything wrong with the source, but its deserving a reference.
-Put up a map of their location and migrations but currently its not showing on the page

[Dirty Chai]

"Man", I like your polite way of asking ... ahm .. stating and how much work you put in such a single post.

Actually the frisians are one of the recent faction-additions as you would have known if you read through newer posts.

They still need more research - so if you can contribute something?

Sorry, I didn't realize they were there.
Im known for being rude one in my own family. I usually don't even realize it.
Hehe

Well, looks awesome guys. I don't think I need to contribute here; you all already no more than I'll ever know. Once again, looks awesome, and I'm excited to play a mod with the Frisians in it. I also didn't realize there already was one with them either...

Btw, after I saw Beowulf, I had this vision for a while of the Frisians kind of looking like stereotype bums.
But I figure they're similar to Saxons, as even a historian identified the Saxons as Frisians.
Otherwise, all I can think of is that their capital is Utrecht and the Frisians acted like small-scale pirates in the North Sea similar to the Illyrian Pirates of Pre-Roman Greece.

[Deutschland]

Ok you might be right about the romanized military but i insist there weere no roman style buildings or culture north of the rhine ... The germanic influence was much to strong...

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

They may have had baths and other buildings (as it was roman occupied on and off for short amounts of time) but it would be predominately Barbarian, except for their army which should be 1/2 and 1/2

[Deutschland]

I just wonder who would build a bath in a war zone... Maybe there were some decaying castra from earlier campaigns but not much more...

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I mean, the Frisians live doutside of roman borders, and that area never experienced conflict. Under Augustus the Area was under roman control until about AD 28 and the romans built baths and other buildings in the primary settlements in that area.

[Aethelstan]

"Roman control" is a term that could lead to much discussion - at least it doesnt meen "roman possesion/territory"?
So I wonder, why you are focussing/discussing possible roman buildings (which I´d doubt).

Anyway, whats "important" here, is a long "tradition" of frisians serving in roman military as "foederati" or "auxiliary" - causing at least some frisisans to be used with and trained in roman warfare?
And that should be "clear and stated"?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

There was a treaty and the frisians took advantage of thise treatise to civilise themselves with roman tech, but they were still predominately barbarian

[Aethelstan]

but they were still predominately barbarian

No doubts about that!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Yep!!!

[char]

The Romans had a long tradition of the carrot and the stick when facing so called barbarians.

Roman influence would spread amongst and permeate the tribes and federations along the Roman frontier to a greater or lesser extent. Lets not forget that the tribes did not want to destroy Rome but rather secure themselves a slice of the Roman dream. Most major invasions in late antiquity whilst acquiring plunder where led by Romanized or in some cases half Roman Germanics who wanted a Roman life style within the empire for there people and a military command within the Roman army for themselves.

Indeed after the fall of Rome and the western empire, heavily Romanized Germanics such as the Franks carved out kingdoms that retained Roman styles of government and Roman Military tradition. The franks used heavy mail armoured cav and heavy mail armoured inf who were disciplined and fought in the Roman manor according to the historian Jordanes.

In Britain after the fall of Rome our research for ATW has shown that the barbarians did not flood in and turn off the lights. Whilst some invaders where pagan others were Christian and so this does present a different picture to what went on in Italy and France at the same time. However the Romano British fought on for quite some time, retaining towns and late Roman styles of government and military forces.

I would say that even in late antiquity when Rome was on the defensive the Roman emperors still retained the dream of aggressive military confrontation and adventuring that there predecessors had followed. The following options to confront, defeat, assimilate and control barbarians or if this failed to exclude or buy them off still existed in late antiquity.

1/ Conquest.
2/ Exclusion by military force and defensive structures.
3/ Pu-native or retaliatory military raids.
4/ Patronage of a local pro Roman bigwig, involving occasional military and financial support.
5/ The payment of tribute and or supplying of Roman equipment and military experts.

I propose that the Frisians where heavily Romanised as the posts above attest, but crucially any tribe or federation living along the Rhine or Danube would also become Romanized by there proximity of the empire and the strong effect of superior Roman forms of government and culture flooding into barbarian culture.