[HISTORICAL ISSUE] - Iranian origin of Croats and Serbs

[phoenix[illusion]]

I've heard of theories about Iranian origin from both Croatian and Serbian historians. I thought that it was just a fake thing, but John Fine surpriesd me, cause he listed both Serbs and Croats as Iranian tribes. Firstly, Croat theory was made to show the difference from Serbs, but also Serbs did that too, and in the end, both nation historians claim that Croats and Serbs are Iranian origin.

And now text from John Fine Jr.'s book, which mostly surprised me, cause he claims the same, and he is one of the foreign historians, who studied balkan a lot.

[Hrobatos]

let me ask something, how manny of you actually know what is iranian theory, on what facts it is base what does it claim? how manny of you who generaly thinh its fake actually know what the teory is? one? none?

[NikeBG]

In the end, it will probably turn out that all South-Slavs are actually Iranic Greko-Thraco-Illyrians.

Edit:

let me ask something, how manny of you actually know what is iranian theory, on what facts it is base what does it claim? how manny of you who generaly thinh its fake actually know what the teory is? one? none?

For the Serbo-Croatian case, I know only about the ethnonymic phonetic similarities, which is usually a pretty weak argument alone. I remember there were some other minor arguments as well, but can't really remember them right now...

[Hrobatos]

well it is most likely in my opinion, except Greeks

[clandestino]

For the Serbo-Croatian case, I know only about the ethnonymic phonetic similarities, which is usually a pretty weak argument alone. I remember there were some other minor arguments as well, but can't really remember them right now...

Exactly, only '' arguments '' are that name Croat resembles some Scythian names found on 1st and 2nd century AD inscriptions in the ruins of antique city of Tanais on the mouth of Don, present day Ukraine, and that name Serbs resembles the name of Sarmatian tribe Serboi, mentioned at Tacitus, Pliny and Ptolemy in 1st and 2nd centuries AD, living on lower Volga river, present day Russia. Afterward some people went further and tried to trace origin of Croats in Afghanistan, old Arachosia, which is called Harahuvatiš in old Perisa. Theoretically this Iranian tribes could mix with Slavs and leave them their name after being assimilated, but there is not a single evidence for that, more over between the Tanais inscriptions and mentions of Serboi and the mentions of modern Serbs and Croats stands a gap of some 500-600
or more years during which there are not a single mention of Croats and Serbs. The name of Serbs first appears in fredegar's chronicle in 631. ( referring to Lusatian Serbs in east Germany ) while the name of Croats is first attested in 852. and the Balkan Serbs are first time recorded in 822. The most important however is that by the time they are first time recorded in Balkan ( 9th century ) both Croats and Serbs are purely Slavs ( purely in the sense of language ), just as their namesakes Sorbs (in east Germany ) , Charvats in Czech and White Croats in eastern Poland. Historically speaking there are absolutely no evidence to support this Sarmatian-Serbo-Croat connection and as far as I know there are no archeological evidences either, so the only evidences that could be produced is above mentioned phonetic similarity which is very, very thin argument and strictly speaking can't be taken in account by the historian. Unfortunately since this theories had once been proposed it appears that all scientist dealing with this issue feel responsible to make their opinion about them and by that way give them credibility that they don't deserve. Anyway its all the domain of the theory and hypothesis, therefore it should be taken with a lot of caution and scepticism. For the Fine it seems that he believes in stories of Constantine Porphyrogenite too much and that he takes his story about two waves of settlement of Slavs for granted. However this is something that also depends mostly on authors personal opinion not on strict evidences, therefore you have historians going from complete denial of CP's story to ones who completely accept it.

[phoenix[illusion]]

but it was not written by anyone. it was written by Fine, and yes, in his books we can see that he's relying on DAI, but he thinks that they are both Iranian tribes. And I can say that Fine is one of the foreign historians that spent many years studying balkan

[vilil]

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...cient_iran.php

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...serbs_jats.php

I suppose even Australopithecus is from Iran. What a load of crap.

[NikeBG]

Has he studied the Iranic world, though, in order to make such a conclusion? That's one of the main weaknesses of all our East-Iranian supporters (for the Bulgarian case) too - they make expeditions to Afghanistan and Iran, compare all kinds of words from there, but they actually don't know practically anything in that area (which is why I support the West-Iranic theory, which is supported by archaeologists etc).

[clandestino]

but it was not written by anyone. it was written by Fine, and yes, in his books we can see that he's relying on DAI, but he thinks that they are both Iranian tribes. And I can say that Fine is one of the foreign historians that spent many years studying balkan

And many other historians spent their entire lives studying Serbian and Croatian history and they don't even mention these theories because they don't regard them as worth mentioning, for example Jireček in his History of Serbs or F.Šišić in his Povijest Hrvata ( both of them frequently used as source by Fine, see bibliography of his Early and Late medieval Balkan ) don't even mention Iranian theories and those are some of the best experts on Serb and Croat history. Same goes for Istorija srpskog naroda which was written by best Yugoslavian historians of time ( also used as source by Fine ) where in volumes 1 and 2 which cover medieval period of Serbian history these theories are also not taken into account. The differences also come from methodological reasons, people like Jireček, Šišić and most of the modern Yugoslavian historians follow German classical history school which puts emphasis on strict source critics and empiric approach, therefore they are reluctant to involve in making theories which are not based on concrete sources and evidence, which are obviously lacking in the issue of Iranian origins of Serb and Croats. On the other hand historians following different methodologies allow themselves to make theories and hypothesis to fill the '' empty '' spaces which are not covered by the sources, something that Fine is doing in this case.

[Son of Fire]

I know Tibor Zivkovic (sp?) also supports the Iranian theory due to supposed words of Iranic origin in Serbo-Croation...

Is it possible?
It could be... if they were remnant Sarmatian tribes, they did share territory with Slavs, and we have seen that other Slavs have taken on a foreign ruling elite before, (Rus, Avars, Bulgars), with whom they have adopted their tribal name, and also assimilated... so it is possible...

But I don't think we can cite it as fact yet, as there is not nearly enough evidence, best to just keep it in mind as a bit of a fringe theory for the moment...
So be aware of it... but I wouldn't tout it as the final word, or the definitive truth yet... as much more evidence needs to come to light before such claims can be made...

[clandestino]

I know Tibor Zivkovic (sp?) also supports the Iranian theory due to supposed words of Iranic origin in Serbo-Croation...

There are no Iranic words in Serbo-Croatian which aren't known in other Slavic languages as well, using that argument every Slavic nation is of Iranic origin. After all Slavic and Sarmatian/Antic people lived side by side for long time, it's only natural that they borrowed words from each other. However there are many words in Slavic which are of Gothic/Germanic origin, does it proves that Slavs are Goths?

Is it possible?
It could be... if they were remnant Sarmatian tribes, they did share territory with Slavs, and we have seen that other Slavs have taken on a foreign ruling elite before, (Rus, Avars, Bulgars), with whom they have adopted their tribal name, and also assimilated... so it is possible...

It is possible of course, I think it's possible as well, however historical science tends to be exact science that doesn't give much space to possibilities but rather deals with exact facts supported by hard sources and evidences. As said before: connecting 2nd century Serboi from the mouth of Volga with 6th century Serbs in east Germany or 9th century Serbs from Balkan is to over stretched and supported with absolutely nothing.

So be aware of it... but I wouldn't tout it as the final word, or the definitive truth yet... as much more evidence needs to come to light before such claims can be made...

Unfortunately there is little hope that some new evidence will appear from blue, maybe some new witty etymological construction of bored scholars, but some real source hardly.

[Son of Fire]

Hence my use of the word "supposed"...

[slavic_crusader]

I think clandestino has very good points here in regarding to language.....

I too have been looking at this for my Croatian assignment at school.... And i see that they have connections between some words such as Mt.Zagros (in Iran) in which gives the name Zagreb. And then we have Dinara mountains, in which has connection to Mt. Dinar in Iran. Then i read like croats have a connection with irans by clothing, the checker board symbol.... and a religion of fire and sun.... This vague, but this what i remember... Then they are on about names in the Croatian migration path such as "habroatis" or "Chroates" in iran and then Hvartin us Georgia, then the story of Tana in ukraine as someone mentioned above...
And the most stupidest thing i ever read is that we croats and serbs have a connection with Jats in India...

For the Serbs they say some went for the steppes and finally got conquered by mongols and so we have the name Siberia and a town in near the mouth of volga called Serbi.....

But i think if u take seat and think perhaps many of our influences maybe given by Ottomans.... They were the connection between east and west for long time... And we all know what they done to us.....

[Hrobatos]

this is not where connecton exists, similarities are accidental among these words or names



names like White Croatia, Red Croatia, White Serbia, White Russia, Red Russia you see iranic peoples as well as slavic used same colors to name parts of the world so western Croatia was White Croatia and Red was south, Black was north and so on, names of 7 legendary Croat leaders are non-slavic and most likely iranic or turkic
titles like ban or zhupan, again non-slavic but most likely either iranic or turkic

you should also keep in mind that iranic peoples lived all the way to Romania till like fall of Rome and after, such as Sarmatians and Ants
there fore something of iranic origin very well can have its origin in modern Ukraine rather than in eastern Iran or western India ( and it seems much more likely)
also these words can borroved as clandestino said, Ants, Sarmatians and Slavs live near each other for centuries

we will probably never know, only thing we can do is guess and that isnt really best way to deal with history

[NikeBG]

I know Tibor Zivkovic (sp?) also supports the Iranian theory due to supposed words of Iranic origin in Serbo-Croation...

As far as I've read on the matter, there has been a strong Iranic linguistic influence on the Slavic languages since the earliest of times, more specifically from the times of Proto-Slavic (before the dispersal of the Slavs). After the dispersal, the group of the Western Slavs has logically kept those most archaic Iranic elements, since they were more distanced and separated from the main areas of Iranic influences, while the Southern and Eastern Slavs eventually replaced the archaic Iranic influences with middle- and modern-Persisms, the modern ones being especially among the South Slavs, thanks to the Ottoman rule and the role of the Persian language in it.
So, words of Iranic origin, as clandestino said, can be found among practically all Slavic languages since the Slavs were formed. Actually, I'd say that, besides the Baltic and Germanic languages, the Iranic ones are naturally the closest languages to the Slavic ones in the IE tree.

And i see that they have connections between some words such as Mt.Zagros (in Iran) in which gives the name Zagreb. And then we have Dinara mountains, in which has connection to Mt. Dinar in Iran. Then i read like croats have a connection with irans by clothing, the checker board symbol.... and a religion of fire and sun.... This vague, but this what i remember... Then they are on about names in the Croatian migration path such as "habroatis" or "Chroates" in iran and then Hvartin us Georgia, then the story of Tana in ukraine as someone mentioned above...

Phonetic similarities are quite the "historical" hit these days and the funny thing is that they're almost always done by non-specialists (our most famous example is Petar Dobrev, a professor in economical history, the greatest propagator of the East-Iranic theory for the Bulgars, using words from high and low without any *scientifical* linguistic connection). One such example is this map. Funny thing though - f.e. it shows a place called Varnu in Afghanistan (or Iran, not sure) and our Varna in Bulgaria; but while reading the Heimskringla I found a direct Varna in Sweden as well (obviously, we have no connection with Sweden, so the Varna-Varna phonetic "similarity" is void, as can be in those other cases). True, if there's a whole cluster of such evidences, supported by non-linguistic (i.e. archaeological etc) sources, it could become a thesis worthy of further research, so it could then become a theory, if actual substantial evidences are found.
As for the clothing - there's a famous example, written by one of our greater authors, Aleko Konstantinov, from the beginning of the previous century: "At the exhibition [the world exhibition in Chicago] there were also some Indian [American Indian] huts. We also saw an Indian school there. I don't know if it would be pleasing or unpleasing for you to know, but I'll tell it and you believe me if you will, and if you don't - ask Mr. Shopov: the type of the Indian women reminds us very much of the type of our Shop women; there is a great resemblance between the costumes and adornments of the Indians and the Shops; they also braid their hairs and cover the faces the same way; they also comb their hair like them, bear the same metallic rattles and... can you believe it? - they sing almost as our Shop women. Their household goods - the rugs, kerchiefs, embroideries, shirts - as if they've stolen them from our peasants." (Here's the full original (on Bulgarian), if somebody wants it)

[slavic_crusader]

Interesting.....

oh and just to let u know Varnu is in Afghanistan

[Hrobatos]

As for the clothing - there's a famous example, written by one of our greater authors, Aleko Konstantinov, from the beginning of the previous century: "At the exhibition [the world exhibition in Chicago] there were also some Indian [American Indian] huts. We also saw an Indian school there. I don't know if it would be pleasing or unpleasing for you to know, but I'll tell it and you believe me if you will, and if you don't - ask Mr. Shopov: the type of the Indian women reminds us very much of the type of our Shop women; there is a great resemblance between the costumes and adornments of the Indians and the Shops; they also braid their hairs and cover the faces the same way; they also comb their hair like them, bear the same metallic rattles and... can you believe it? - they sing almost as our Shop women. Their household goods - the rugs, kerchiefs, embroideries, shirts - as if they've stolen them from our peasants." (Here's the full original (on Bulgarian), if somebody wants it)

damn! I think this is a proof that Bulgarian sailors are first who found, exploerd and colonized America some 20 000 years, oh yeah!

[NikeBG]

Or that the Aztecs actually crossed the ocean and founded Danubian Bulgaria.

[clandestino]

Phonetic similarities are quite the "historical" hit these days and the funny thing is that they're almost always done by non-specialists (our most famous example is Petar Dobrev, a professor in economical history, the greatest propagator of the East-Iranic theory for the Bulgars, using words from high and low without any *scientifical* linguistic connection). One such example is this map. Funny thing though - f.e. it shows a place called Varnu in Afghanistan (or Iran, not sure) and our Varna in Bulgaria; but while reading the Heimskringla I found a direct Varna in Sweden as well (obviously, we have no connection with Sweden, so the Varna-Varna phonetic "similarity" is void, as can be in those other cases). True, if there's a whole cluster of such evidences, supported by non-linguistic (i.e. archaeological etc) sources, it could become a thesis worthy of further research, so it could then become a theory, if actual substantial evidences are found.

That's nothing compared to one Serbian guy, Deretic, who is outright crazy, I watched him once on some tv when announcer asked him about turkisms in Serbian language ( and Serbian is like every Balkan language full of them ) and he replied: those are not turkisms, those are actually serbisms in Turkish language, people just think those are turkisms. Then he started talking when he was on some congress in Moscow ( congress of mentally disturbed people I suppose ) and one woman approached him and told him that she had found in some arabian manuscripts that Romanov dynasty is originally from Serbia from vicinity of Gornji Milanovac! I mean, LOl.

[NapoleonSRB]

well, if you ask me, this is idiotic...whats the point of losing 10 years of your life to prove that serbs and croats are iranian origin???If you ask me, i was, i am, and i will be a Serb, i dont think anything bad about croats,muslims or iranians, but i am a serb...