Armor Upgrades / Reforms

[brymht]

I believe it is hardcodes in EB that when a unit achieves an armor upgrade, their defense stats will only increase by 1; even though the upgrade might have been from leather or barechested to chain.

Am I correct in saying this is hard coded? I understand the EB will be representing a unit's evolution with armor upgrades; but wouldn't a unit whose equipment had improved that much get more than a + 1 increase to defense?

Or am I completely wrong thinking this is hard coded?

[Foot]

I believe it is hardcodes in EB that when a unit achieves an armor upgrade, their defense stats will only increase by 1; even though the upgrade might have been from leather or barechested to chain.

Am I correct in saying this is hard coded? I understand the EB will be representing a unit's evolution with armor upgrades; but wouldn't a unit whose equipment had improved that much get more than a + 1 increase to defense?

Or am I completely wrong thinking this is hard coded?

You are correct that it is hardcoded, but the increase in the armour stat is 2.5 per armour level. The problem is not too little, but too much.

Foot

[Achilla]

I wonder though, does the auto-resolve function for AI-vs-AI reflect the increase as +2.5 or +1.0?

Armour upgrades have always bugged me to be honest. I noticed they always disrupt whatever kind of balance one wants to achieve between different units, especially in ap-vs-non-ap unit benchmarks.

In this case, wouldn't it be better to remove the armour upgrades or standardise them by giving only one armour upgrade per each unit?

[bobbin]

That would prevent us from having different versions of the same unit, take a look at the Boii and Massylii previews, you'll see we use the armour upgrade feature to create early, middle and late versions to represent the change in armour use during the time period.

[Achilla]

I was wondering in the pure abstract

However, that does create some mod design challenges, to say the least. If armour of 7 is equivalement of early plate in medieval vanilla, then suddenly a naked peasant with displayed defense of 3 might have the real defense of 7.5

I guess armour upgrades are a must because otherwise you would exceed hardcoded limit of 500 units in the EDU?

You see, my main fear here is that the unit which was chopped down by the arrows like butter, will suddenly become invincible. Couple this up with a shield and you have a mobile force field against arrows

I just like to derive into gameplay disputes, so forgive me.

[bobbin]

However, that does create some mod design challenges, to say the least. If armour of 7 is equivalement of early plate in medieval vanilla, then suddenly a naked peasant with displayed defense of 3 might have the real defense of 7.5

Not really, each armour upgrade level will reflected in the armour the unit wears (via the model change feature). Its not like we are going to give naked peasants type units the upgrade either, so their stats will be unaffected.

I guess armour upgrades are a must because otherwise you would exceed hardcoded limit of 500 units in the EDU?

As we still have plenty of slots left thats not really necessary, mainly it's being used to show changes in single units armour styles over the period.

You see, my main fear here is that the unit which was chopped down by the arrows like butter, will suddenly become invincible. Couple this up with a shield and you have a mobile force field against arrows

Only if it visibly gains better armour.

[jmrc]

However, that does create some mod design challenges, to say the least. If armour of 7 is equivalement of early plate in medieval vanilla, then suddenly a naked peasant with displayed defense of 3 might have the real defense of 7.5

The visual aspect of the unit will change, so the number of unarmoured individuals will be very limited or even non-existing in Late era units and considerably reduced in the Middle era units. The player will have to keep in mind that Late units are increasingly more powerful than Early and Middle era units, just like today he has regarding upgrades.

I guess armour upgrades are a must because otherwise you would exceed hardcoded limit of 500 units in the EDU?

Most probably, if we didn't have that limit, we might not use the upgrades to represent the reforms, since that would gives us total control over the defense values for each stage.

You see, my main fear here is that the unit which was chopped down by the arrows like butter, will suddenly become invincible. Couple this up with a shield and you have a mobile force field against arrows

The balancing is done based on the extreme units, so the probable situation is that the Early gets heavy casualties, the Middle gets many casualties, while the Late get light casualties.

[Basil 11]

*armour

[sumskilz]

*armour

Armor is the correct spelling in American English.

[Basil 11]

Armor is the correct spelling in American English.

Yes, I am very well aware of this. Just felt like being a bit provocative.

[ISA Gunner]

Pfft Americans...what kind of idiot decided to start spelling the word "mum" with an "o" anyway?

On topic though, i know how the team has always stated that there will be no lorica segementata wearing Legions. But i was thinking, what if you replace the gunpowder discovery event to the Romans constructing the lorica segementata. This could be done relatively late in the game and once a certain building is built, Legionaries that are recruited receive an armour upgrade - visually, the lorica segementata. This would give the player the option to not 'research' it and not use it if they do not wish to. Besides, a lot of things in EB come earlier than the 'date' says. All the various reforms for different factions as well as the conquering of certain areas by factions.

[Horatius Flaccus]

I don't think they are going to do that:

Q: Will there be Lorica Segmentata in EB2?
A: Lorica Segmentata was not widely used within the games time frame. Even though it could be argued that it was used to a minimal extent at the very end of the time frame the team has decided not to include any Lorica Segmentata in the official EB2 releases.

[ISA Gunner]

Besides, a lot of things in EB come earlier than the 'date' says. All the various reforms for different factions as well as the conquering of certain areas by factions.

[Horatius Flaccus]

Yes, so? They clearly stated they are NOT going to have it. Besides, those reforms you speak of are all IN the time frame. LS is not (really).

[Mediolanicus]

Mass production of LS in the EB time frame is only marginally more plausible to put in the game than the great Martian Invasion of 130 BC in modern Denmark.

Seriously, since the earliest days of EB I there have been people asking for LS - because apparently some people tend to completely ignore the purpose of EB just because they like Holywood movies. Since it has been going on for such a long time, I think this is the most certain "controverses" of EB. There will be no LS, unless someone comes up with historical evidence that it was used en masse during the late republic/early prinicate.

[ISA Gunner]

I think you're missing my point. In RTW, to make a unit with Lorica Segementata would take up a whole new unit slot which would be a waste. With M2TW, the armour upgrade option would allow this to happen relatively easily. I couldn't really care if there are legions using the LS in EBII. But a lot of people seem to want it. What i'm saying is, now there is the option to easily include it without making it a necessity. That would please both camps, while not affecting any other aspects of the game. I am also saying that the "time frame" excuse is flawed because as soon as the end turn button is pressed for the first time, there is an alternate history. I as the Romans for example have conquered Iberia, Africa, Italy, Gaul, Illyria, Thrace, Greece, Macedonia, Egypt, Asia and Syria by 160 BC in EB. Adding the option to build an armourer that can upgrade your lorica hamata into lorica segementata after a certain event is triggered late in the game would be cool and would please the people that want to use it while at the same time, people that don't want to have the option of not building that building and thereby not having those Legions equipped with it.

[Mediolanicus]

And why would legions change their armor after the conditions you said were fulfilled.

I'm afraid that you are missing the point here. It is the philosophy of the EB team to do things historically. If there are Hollywood fanboys out there, they will have to make a mini-mod or search another mod.

[Foot]

That would please both camps, while not affecting any other aspects of the game.

It wouldn't please our camp, and we make the thing. The reason we don't include LS is not because of a lack of resources (although that would certainly be a factor were the choice actually on the table).

We pride ourselves on being the mod with no LS, it helps us stand out from the crowd.

Foot

[matmohair1]

CANT EMAGIN PLAYING ROME WITHOUT LS ARMOUR
CAN YOU ATLEAST INCLUDE THEM IN THE CUSTOME BATTLE MODE

[gustave]

We are not going to waste our time making fantasy units just to please LS fanboys.