Suevian Symbols

[Basilisco]

Hi everybody. I start this thread to discuss about the suevian symbols.
In the game their banner is featured in a way I have never seen so I guess were did you get it, maybe its just an invention?

If the awnser to that question is "yes", then I should come up with some suggestions. I hope they may be useful to you.

There is an old legend, related to the coat-of-arms of the city of Coimbra:

"Ataces, the king of the Alans, after completely destroying the city of Conimbriga, decided to establish or restore another one with the same name on the right bank of the river Mondego.
While Ataces was supervising the building of the new Coimbra, behold, suddenly arose Ermanaric, the Swabian king, tried to seize the city and take revenge for the previous defeats with his army. The fight enganged between the two factions was so bloody that the waters of the Mondego dyed red.
Ermanaric withdrew to the north, but Ataces pursuited the Swabian king and he was forced to sue for peace. To do so, offered to the winner Cindazunda princess hand, his own daughter. As is the rule in such cases, the legend says that Cindazunda was extremely beautiful and Ataces immediately fell in love with her. The royal pair of newlyweds set on their journey to Coimbra, accompanied by father and father, and soon realized that betrothal and marriage, with due magnificence.
To commemorate this extraordinary event, Ataces gave the city of Coimbra that the coat still remains in the fundamental. The maiden is crowned Cindazunda, the cup represents his marriage to Ataces, the Lion is the timbre of attack, the Dragon, the timbre of Ermanaric. "

Modern Heraldic Symbols of Coimbra

The dragon is therefore the symbol of the Swabians, as the Lion was to Alans. Please note that this legend was first written around 1580-1615, ie before the proposed flag of Galicia. I believe there is thus some historical support for the use of dragon and lion to represent the United Suevic, and the proposed 1669 seems to have roots earlier in fact.

There are several quotations more. In a memorandum presented by the Chapter of the Cathedral of Lugo to the Assembly of the Kingdom of Galicia, at its meeting held on February 15, 1669, states at some that “(...) de aquí tuvo principio y se originó borrar el Dragón verde y León rojo (armas de los Reyes suevos que al tiempo tenían en este Reyno su corte), y trasladar al dorado campo del escudo de sus armas el santo Grial con la Sagrada Forma (...) ”.

Translated: "(...) from then onwards it was decided to erase the green dragon and the red lion (arms of the Swabian kings who ruled this country at the time) and bring onto the golden field of the arms the consecrated wafer (...)."

Fron left to right, a reconstruction Suevian flag -according to the document-, and the later medieval coat of arms of the Kingdom of Galicia from the Seagars Roll -an english armorial from the XIII century-. The grial of Galicia is present in main european armorials since the XIII century.

There were several more references like this, even in the major armorials of Portugal and Spain, as in the book "Ciencia Heroyca Reducida a las Leyes Heráldicas del Blasón".

All those elements described are nowadays present around the lands of the old suevi kingdom:

The Coat of arms of the Kingdom of Leon (medieval sucessor of the suevi gallaecian kingdom).






CoA of Arcos de Valdevez, and FC Porto Logo.

I hope you get some ideas from all this.

[Basilisco]

[bad edit]

[Riothamus]

Hi everybody. I start this thread to discuss about the suevian symbols.
In the game their banner is featured in a way I have never seen so I guess were did you get it, maybe its just an invention?

If the awnser to that question is "yes", then I should come up with some suggestions. I hope they may be useful to you.

There is an old legend, related to the coat-of-arms of the city of Coimbra:

Modern Heraldic Symbols of Coimbra

The dragon is therefore the symbol of the Swabians, as the Lion was to Alans. Please note that this legend was first written around 1580-1615, ie before the proposed flag of Galicia. I believe there is thus some historical support for the use of dragon and lion to represent the United Suevic, and the proposed 1669 seems to have roots earlier in fact.

There are several quotations more. In a memorandum presented by the Chapter of the Cathedral of Lugo to the Assembly of the Kingdom of Galicia, at its meeting held on February 15, 1669, states at some that “(...) de aquí tuvo principio y se originó borrar el Dragón verde y León rojo (armas de los Reyes suevos que al tiempo tenían en este Reyno su corte), y trasladar al dorado campo del escudo de sus armas el santo Grial con la Sagrada Forma (...) ”.

Translated: " so therefore the green dragon and the red lion were removed from the golden field and in the middle was placed the Grial with its holy form emerging from it"

Fron left to right, a reconstruction Suevian flag -according to the document-, and the later medieval coat of arms of the Kingdom of Galicia from the Seagars Roll -an english armorial from the XIII century-. The grial of Galicia is present in main european armorials since the XIII century.

There were several more references like this, even in the major armorials of Portugal and Spain, as in the book "Ciencia Heroyca Reducida a las Leyes Heráldicas del Blasón".

All those elements described are nowadays present around the lands of the old suevi kingdom:

The Coat of arms of the Kingdom of Leon (medieval sucessor of the suevi gallaecian kingdom).

CoA of Arcos de Valdevez, and FC Porto Logo.

I hope you get some ideas from all this.

Thank you Basilisco..I'll look into this

[Aethelstan]

Its very interesting information, I liked to read it, but also I fear for very limited use of the mod.
Its derived from medieval/early modern legends - nothing bad about this - sometimes it all you have to guess from - there most likely was nearly no distinctive (compared to other related tribes) banners, not to speak of a coat of arms - for our period. But all motives here are clearly at least high medieval and wouldnt make a good source for a "guess back".

[Basilisco]

Of course there was not a regulated heraldry among germanic tribes in the late antiquity -maybe spared symbols, but not normalized-, but I think this kind of information is better than nothing when trying to make a logo for the suevian faction, for example.

[Lord Willy]

Basilisco , those pictures are very usefull , in particularry the stadium of dragao , so we can implement it on the game

joking , good work

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

They're useful, but too far after the time frame of the vandals to consider in this mod.

[Basilisco]

Well, according to what I have posted, the symbol of the Suevi was already the dragon before the alans arrived. Despite of the vericity of the sources, I must insist it´s better than nothing.

[Riothamus]

Well, according to what I have posted, the symbol of the Suevi was already the dragon before the alans arrived. Despite of the vericity of the sources, I must insist it´s better than nothing.

Your initial point is a good one. What symbol or banner did the Suebi carried with them from Germany to Gallacia is a legitimate question. Can you do more research on this Basilisco?

[Aethelstan]

Hmm ... Rio, I still doubt that info to be of any use for us. Of course it would be great if Basilisco or someone could "dig deeper", but I see this route as a dead-end.

Dragons are "popular" in the high and late medieval-ages, but their source is almost everywhere celtic, at least some use of traditions, sagas from that source.
If you look at germanic myths, dragons, snakes, all variations, are the enemy, they are evil, the gods fight them and they have also few to no routs with the romans, who influenced the germanic tribes most. Those few things we know about, never tell us they are fighting under or worshipping "banners of evil",
So I heavily doubt that those dragons have any routs within the dark ages or the antiques of the suevian tribe.
Their use depends on regional myths were they settled and need abondonment of old ways and adapt something new (like christianization) first.

[Basilisco]

Well actually is not a dead end.
Not few intellectuals and researchers have written about this question. There are more theories regarding the symbols of the late romans and suevians in Gallaecia, and personally I find some of them more plausible than the first one I have exposed.

The legend about the origins of Coimbra could have some pollitical-biasing when it talks about suevi and alani, when the true conflict took place between the Gallaecian Romans and the Suevi invaders. In this sense, many authors speculate about a true "roman" origin of the dragon and the suevian meaning of the lion.

This theory could be supported by the examples of Wales (the dragon is thought to be an inheritance of draconarius corps -I dont know wether draconarius were stationed in Gallaecia or not-), and the later hieraldry of suabia (Germany), wich is, as you can see, anormally full of lions everywhere... and a dragon too!!?

A great number of old noble lineages from northern gallaecia carried dragons in their coats of arms during the medieval ages, but contrary to we could expect according my first post, not did so the southern nobility (lately known as Portugal). This makes sense if we asume that the dragon remained a local roman symbol, because suevi colonisation and control over the Gallaecia Lucense (north) was weaker than in the Gallaecia Bracariense (South, where the suevi had their capital).
In fact, these northern lineages are assumed to have a roman-celtic origin by modern vexiologists.

So, wich of these symbols is truly suevian? the dragon? the lion? both or none of them??
Make your own conclusions

PS :What calls my attention is how skeptical some people have been towards this topic (and I respect that position). But as I can see in the other mod Conquestus Britaniae thread, there is no discusion on the welsh dragon, in spite the fact that dragon symbol is as refutable as those I have exposed in this thread. Smells like there is a bit of prejudice and partiality around


UP: Later Baden-Württenberg and Bavaria CoA´s. Down: Early CoA of the Gallaecian kingdom from Leonese dinasty (medieval sucessor of the suevi kingdom).

[Aethelstan]

Thank you for another interesting post Basilisco.

As far as I´m concerned I can ashure you, theres no prejudice and partiality involved.
And to be honest most faction-symbols within the dark-ages are just wild guesses. some of them ridicilous.

While really apreciating what you´re offering here, my prob stays the same.

We know few even on the mediaval swabian banners (leading the "first group", Blutfahne/Bloodbanner), nothing about the late antic tribe and as far as I know similar few or less on the Galician-suebian/alans.

And what should be made of this for the 5h or 6th century? A lion-banner for suevians? Certainly not - or will you really suggest such a thing for people who didnt know a lion?

So I state it again - this is a dead end - and I really dont want to be harsh and I´m happy to read such input, but only thing which could be rethought is the "dragon-issue" and I think your examples boster my opinion, which says: no way.


Things could be different if it is possible to change a faction-symbol within a campaign. I fthat woukld be doable
we could well use your examples after some time and a "christianization event".

[Basilisco]

And what should be made of this for the 5h or 6th century? A lion-banner for suevians? Certainly not - or will you really suggest such a thing for people who didnt know a lion?

Well following your argument, looks like lions became a more common domestic animal in Europe after the eleventh century. Indeed I was thinking about a griffon with unicorn for the suevi, but lion also sounds good for me.

These were just suggestions, just in case the developers were blank of ideas. Nothing else.

PS. I should apologize from my last post, I really thought that the "modern dragon banner" of wales was included as faction avatar in the Conquestus Britanniae mod. Sometimes I see things. My fault.

[Riothamus]

Well following your argument, looks like lions became a more common domestic animal in Europe after the eleventh century. Indeed I was thinking about a griffon with unicorn for the suevi, but lion also sounds good for me.

These were just suggestions, just in case the developers were blank of ideas. Nothing else.

PS. I should apologize from my last post, I really thought that the "modern dragon banner" of wales was included as faction avatar in the Conquestus Britanniae mod. Sometimes I see things. My fault.

No worries Basilisco. We will be revisiting the Vandals after the completion of the Britanniae campaign and a new faction symbol is certainly a possibility for the Suebi. Currently the one used maybe more suitable for the Alemanni. Its an interesting topic that needs more research.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I agree here.