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Thread: What if there was no Napoleon?

  1. #1

    Default What if there was no Napoleon?

    As says on the topic. That's right, ol' Boney isn't around, died crossing that bridge at Arcole or had a 'whiff of grapeshot' for himself maybe, but everyone else is. That means the French still have Davout, Massena, Lannes, etc and likewise, the Allies still have Wellington, Kutozov, etc. Without Boney, would the revolution collapse under an Allied onslaught or might it be someone else's fingers on that crown? Maybe a more moderate outcome, a general who was able to hold off the Allies but know when to make lasting peace?

    One thing is for sure. To say that Napoleon's marshals either wouldn't make an appearance or would otherwise shirk to some quiet corner in history would belie their fiery personalities. Napoleon's marshals were men after his own heart, talented ambitious individuals who took advantage of the collapse of the ancien regime to propel themselves to the very top. Moreover, chances were overwhelming that it would be an army man who takes control of the country. The French revolutionary civilian government was on the brink of collapse, buckling under corruption and ineffectiveness and threatened by outside invasion. That Napoleon took power was largely due to him being the most popular army commander at the time.

    One thing that makes it hard to evaluate the marshals though, is the level of involvement Napoleon had in his campaigns. Most of his marshals couldn't function well without him because they simply weren't used to not having him around. Yet the clues were there, that without Napoleon this would've still been a remarkable period.
    Last edited by Stellerex; April 15, 2010 at 11:11 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    In term of army strength, France and Russia had the biggest population at that time, which means that they were, with or without good generals, able to produce huge armies, and renew them if needed.
    So I think that the french army was fully able to shine without Napoleon.
    Though, Napoleon brought them more than simply good strategy for battles:
    by reforming the commissioning system of officer, by creating a real meritocracy, and by federating the army around the idea of the Empire Francais, he transformed the french army into a formidable war machine.

    Now, if you have a look at the course of revolution in France, Napoleon was originally only a defendeur of it.
    Even if, at the end, he was defeated, he maintained an anti-mornarchist stream in France for almost 20 years, which made it impossible for a king to regain control of France for a long time without running into troubles and revolts.
    In that sense, Napoleon's deed is a success.

    Put simply, without Napoleon, I'm not sure the revolution's ideas would have survived an early restauration of a king, and France may have remained a kingdom, with a little luck something closer to what the UK is -the viability of a absolute mornarchy is questionable in the 19th century-.
    And two hundred years later, I saw very little difference in term of democracy between the two systems.
    After all, isnt Gordon running a republic, and Nicolas a kingdom?! *oops I said it*
    Last edited by Gauloisier de la Gauloiserie; April 16, 2010 at 06:54 AM.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakon View Post
    After all, isnt Gordon running a republic, and Nicolas a kingdom?! *oops I said it*
    What, no love for Sarko?
    'Truth...which is not a beautiful shape living in a well, but a shy bird best caught by a stratagem.' -Joseph Conrad.

  4. #4

    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by IAB1789 View Post
    What, no love for Sarko?
    No I like him, though I'm much more of a Villepiniste personally.
    I was mainly joking

    French president in 2012
    *warning spoiler inside*
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by Gauloisier de la Gauloiserie; April 16, 2010 at 09:39 AM.
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  5. #5
    Lord Dakier's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    If there were no Napoleon. This thread wouldn't exist... oh and some other unimportant stuff too
    We Came, We Saw, We Ran Away!

  6. #6

    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Dakier View Post
    If there were no Napoleon. This thread wouldn't exist...

    Lord Dakier wins the thread!

  7. #7
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    Massena would've taken his place, although probalbly bad, because of his looting habits in War, which coul lead to extortion as a national leader.

  8. #8
    Leoben's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    If there was no Napoleon, it is likely that Europe would have degenerated into war anyway as Prussia, Austria, Russia and Great Britain had conflicting interests that they all had to put aside while fighting Napoleon.

  9. #9

    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Dakier View Post
    If there were no Napoleon. This thread wouldn't exist... oh and some other unimportant stuff too
    Nor would this game for that matter.

    More to the point the French Revolution would probably have continued to tear itself apart Toulon would probably not have been retaken and eventually France would have been reclaimed for the Bourbons once they finally finished killing each other.

  10. #10

    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    I'm no historian (I do love history, but this era is perhaps my weakest), but it seems to me Napoleon did some pretty strange things. Did France earn anything from his campaign in Egypt? He lost 3-400.000 men on his march on Moscow, surely these could have done some damage in other parts of Europe?
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  11. #11

    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    there were several very good generals who could replace Napoleon if he wasnt around... Davout, Desaix, Massena... posibly Ney or Murat, but both would end much sooner than Napoleon... especially Murat

  12. #12
    St. Cyr's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    If there was no Napoleon... Well, thats a huge what if with about 352692489 variables, so everything I'm about to say could be total crap, or dead on accurate...

    Napoleon not existing would have really altered history in a huge way. Although Lannes, Davout, etc. were great generals, nothing about them says that they had either the personality or ambition to try the things that Napoleon did, nor do I see them rising out of obscurity like he did, to seize power. Their careers were made by Napoleon and his ambitions. Without him I don't know if they would have had a chance to shine. Even Napoleon's own rise to power is just...an amazing circumstance. This unknown Corsican peon in the military came outta nowhere to take control of the most powerful nation in Europe? What?

    So, with that in mind it's hard for me to imagine revolutionary France finding any other leader in place of him, or going on a big offensive war of conquest like he did, either. I think if he didn't exist, they would have been hard pressed to defend the country from the various angry foreign powers, let alone expand. Government wise, they probably would have had a sucession of short lived dictatorships/ weak republics/ and probably a restoration of the Bourbons. Without someone with the dynamic personality and ambition of Napoleon I just don't see France being galvanized into such an aggressor. Perhaps even a Civil War might have erupted in the chaos...

    Either way, I don't think France would have extended its foreign power to any degree like Nappy enabled it to. This would have obviously had many, many butterfly effects.

    For America for instance, I don't see the war of 1812 even taking place with the Brits. Also, the Lousiana purchase probably wouldnt have happened, and if it did, it would have taken place much later in time. And who knows, maybe France would have made another attempt at creating a new foothold in the territories. A bazillion ramifications could have spiraled out of this...

    Europe in general would have been a lot further behind in the death of monarchy, serfdom in Russia, and the decline of the aristrocracy. Napoleon was a big boost in the gradual decline of these institutions, so if he didn't exist I think the process would have taken even longer in Europe to come to fruition.

    Germany...I don't see a unified Germany being created as quickly as it happened, if it wasn't for Napoleon's reorganizations...and ultimately the German hatred towards him that helped unite the German peoples against him. In a way he sorted paved the way for Bismarck to do his business.

    Russia...another country that I think kinda came into its own as a major major power as a result of Napoleon's existance. They had always been the sleeping bear but I think the war with him really strengthened them and made them more of a world player after their victory...

    Anyway, I ramble on. But my basic thesis is the world would be very different if Napoleon had not existed. A guy like him only comes around every few hundred years, and if he didn't show up, I can't imagine someone else would've stepped up to the plate in the same way as he did, for good or ill.

    Oh and last but not least... French museums like the Louvre would have A LOT less artwork in them...

  13. #13

    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    He changed everything....

    From ending fuedalism to changing how armies fought.

    Without him there would be no industrialization of France, No Franco-Prusso War of 1871.

    Russia and Prussia would not be at such a great strength during the late 19th Century.

    WWI would probably not have happened since its directly tied to Russian strength during that said time period.

    If WWI didnt happen WWII would not have happened.

    Napoleon literally changed everything.

    He is the greatest man to have ever lived.

  14. #14
    EmperorBatman999's Avatar I say, what, what?
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    Default Re: What if there was no Napoleon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Reichstadt, KINGBOSS View Post
    He changed everything....

    From ending fuedalism to changing how armies fought.

    Without him there would be no industrialization of France, No Franco-Prusso War of 1871.

    Russia and Prussia would not be at such a great strength during the late 19th Century.

    WWI would probably not have happened since its directly tied to Russian strength during that said time period.

    If WWI didnt happen WWII would not have happened.

    Napoleon literally changed everything.

    He is the greatest man to have ever lived.
    What about Russia falling-out during the Crimean War. It had to rely on climate to beat Napoleon mostly, but Russia after the Napoleonic Wars wasn't a shining power as it has been under Peter and Catherine the Greats.

    However, if Tsar Paul wasn't such an idiot, Russia could've retained that greatness.

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