Elven Units- Discussion and New Ideas

[Earl of Memory]

I think I remember from the Silmarilion a phrase something like this.... the armies of Gondolin (?) marched in good order, well armoured, with tall helms and kite shields (?), and then something like a 'forest of spears', which might suggest a phalanx, but nothing too far away from the current High elven army though, I just don't have my copy of the silmarilion here... I would like to see more AOR units for the elves, variety is always good IMHO...

[Gimli]

The Silven Elves/High Elves are great for defence, but they dont have good pikemen to helpdefend. SO i think maybe these units should be added: SE/HE Swordsmen,HE/SE pikemen, Calavary for SE. And those i think should be new units for elves for patch 1.5 ....

[Shocked]

Well the elves have much better equipment then gondor, it may not be "heavy" but it was crafted so well that it is stronger then gondors armour, while also not being as heavy

[Everto]

The Silven Elves/High Elves are great for defence, but they dont have good pikemen to helpdefend. SO i think maybe these units should be added: SE/HE Swordsmen,HE/SE pikemen, Calavary for SE. And those i think should be new units for elves for patch 1.5 ....

I agree, The Pikemen would be a nice addition to either army, defidently to the High Elven Army. The Silvans have professional soldiers, but you may have Lore People arguing against the Silvan pikes. A model for Imladris Pikes exhists, which would be a nice AOR Pike unit for the HE.
There could also be a Lothlorien Pike unit, such as Sindar Pikes.

The Swordsmen with shields in both armies would be a nice addition as well, Perhaps Elite Units such as Sindar Blades and Noldor Blades. Up for discussion.

[Vaul]

The Silvans have professional soldiers, but you may have Lore People arguing against the Silvan pikes.

Well, yes, logical - as they live in dense forests where it is practically impossible to mount an effective cavalry charge, and doing so would be quite ridiculous given their skill with bows...so there would hardly be any need for pikes... Still, Total War reality is something completely different...

[Vaul]

The Swordsmen with shields in both armies would be a nice addition as well, Perhaps Elite Units such as Sindar Blades and Noldor Blades. Up for discussion.

I would rather we had more lower tier troops, and keep the elite armies at a minimum. Not that I'm opposing your suggested units, just perhaps that they aren't elite in status and requirement. I fell that the "body" of the army needs more options... Elite units are killers anyway

[Seleukos_I.]

I agree, The Pikemen would be a nice addition to either army, defidently to the High Elven Army. The Silvans have professional soldiers, but you may have Lore People arguing against the Silvan pikes. A model for Imladris Pikes exhists, which would be a nice AOR Pike unit for the HE.
There could also be a Lothlorien Pike unit, such as Sindar Pikes.

The Swordsmen with shields in both armies would be a nice addition as well, Perhaps Elite Units such as Sindar Blades and Noldor Blades. Up for discussion.

Please not. I'd agree with Imladris Pikemen but please don't add Pikemen to Silvans as well. And not Swordsmen with shields to both factions.
We'd end with two similar factions which would only differ in looks and that is a very bad thing imo.

[Everto]

Please not. I'd agree with Imladris Pikemen but please don't add Pikemen to Silvans as well. And not Swordsmen with shields to both factions.
We'd end with two similar factions which would only differ in looks and that is a very bad thing imo.

I Agree with you Seleukos, as well as Vaul, that Pikemen in the Silvan Armies is not a very pragmatic move. Having two very similar Elven Armies is not the goal, and i believe it should be stressed. They are already similar as it is, all the Elven Elite Units are Parallel in both armies, which is fine imho, but now diversity should be implemented wherever possible.

I think High Elves could get a Medium Tier Unit of some sort, not just the drastic jump from Elven Infantry to Eldar Spearman. The first Barracks give you the Elven Infantry, the Second One just Upgrades them, and then come the Eldar Spearmen. I think a new Elven Unit should be implemented, possibly one that is similar in Appearance to the Elven Archer Unit, except with a shield and sword. Perhaps the Light Elven Infantry could remain as they are, but this new Medium Tier Unit could be given more armor, the Trojan Shield Design , AND JAVELINS! They'd be perfect. As of now, the High Elves have little flexibility in their early units, which is hard when your having to deal with the Hordes of Orcs from the Misty Mountains and then (As I always end up doing in the first Ten Turns), having to battle your way through Uruk-Hai from Isengard (Which Mind you is a Citadel and is pumping out High Tier bad boys really early on).

For High Elven Elite Units...

• Imladris Pikemen

• Eregion Smiths

...both Beautiful designs, and I think an overall agreement on the issue. these units will diversify the High Elven Roster, and give a reason for keeping the western provinces.
Also, the Eregion Smiths, I hope, will remain an AOR unit, possibly only in Ost-en-Edhil? And maybe Rivendell?

As for the Silven Elite Units, I have to say that the Marchwardens would be a fantastic edition. As well as these cool looking Silvan (or sindar?) Elven Nobles/Elites

[Marshy]

Indeed but I must say that the High Elves are too kick ass as it is and the Silvan Elves need some more units. How about some sort of Silvan calvary?

[Louis Lux]

Like koultouras, I like this discussion too
J=A=L and jan made very good points and not putting pressure in the developers the elves could use some attention. Thankfully bilwit did just that and his work is included in a mod compilation that will be released soon as well as the eregion smiths I helped create. I was also talking with yarrum to possibly revive his Rivendel light cavalry project, also J=A=L, accurately dubbed master of suggestions, made suggestions that I am interested in developing.

[Beorn]

Well, I admit that I was folowing this thread too :/

[Alex-ander]

Indeed but I must say that the High Elves are too kick ass as it is and the Silvan Elves need some more units. How about some sort of Silvan calvary?

Yes the Silvan Elves defiantly need some kind of cavalry. They already have horse archers so they would know how to ride a horse.

[Aguirre]

the elves would be my favourite factions if someone created some good units for them. Vanlilla have some great ones, like the sentinels of the woodland realm, mithlond warriors and all the high elven ones except the light archers. the ones from Frome are terrible and I hope they never get beyond being stuck in frome. Bilwit made some great elven units and I think he is our greatest elven hope.
If anyone creates mirkwood elves, I would be thrilled if they were made i dark, natural colours (dark green, grey, broen) with light armor and perhaps some leaf-accessories or something else that made them one with the great woods. and axes only if made extremely detailed

[koultouras]

the ones from Frome are terrible and I hope they never get beyond being stuck in frome.

ouchhhh! ....so much anger m8 ....so much anger!

[Arágion]

silvans with calvalry? no, then there would be two uber factions.... with good infantry, archers and cavalry

and cavalry in dense forest? not a good idea

[Everto]

ouchhhh! ....so much anger m8 ....so much anger!

I honestly see both of the arguments presented. FROME has created many new ideas and models that are innovative and interesting. I especially like the Galadrhim Marchwardens that the people at FROME created. Yet I have to partially agree with Aguirre that the elven units from FROME are sub par because of the following aesthetic reasons...

• The addition of Green (GREEN!?) Armor to the Golden Armored Silvan Units does not have the desired effect of diversity. Gold in itself is not a very standard Armor Color, but it is Metallic and thus believable. GREEN on the other hand ruins an already perfect design IMO. It doesn't look appealing what soever.
• The second point molds into the first because I think the Armor for all the units should stay a standard color. There is not a single elite unit in TATW that has different colored Armor amongst its units. I would even understand Gold and Silver being variations throughout a units armor (though I wouldn't find it appealing for the elves, seeing as they embody harmony and perfection) because those are metallic colors, BUT GREEN?

That is why I understand Aguirre's point of view, but I do find FROME's creation of new rosters refreshing and interesting, though I don't believe that the units are refined enough to be placed into Vanilla.

silvans with calvalry? no, then there would be two uber factions.... with good infantry, archers and cavalry

and cavalry in dense forest? not a good idea

Honestly I think that the Silvans should have slightly more Calvary, possibly AOR Elite Horse Archers. It wouldn't be hard to percieve that Lothlorien, because of their proximity to the lands of Rohan, would have access to some sort of Horses. Creating a Royal Heavy Horse Archer, recruitable only in Lothlorien, would be a nice addition.

Though seeing as I'm an undying fan of The High Elven Cause , I also think that Rivendell should have a similar unit.

The one thing that I'd want to stress though is that the look for both units as well as the stats should be far different.

The Silvan Heavy Horse Archer Unit should have less armor, but stronger ranged attack and faster speed.
The High Elven Heavy Horse Archer Unit should have more Armor, but weaker ranged attack, and possibly stronger Melee.

(There could also be a dismounted version of these units created )

[koultouras]

• The addition of Green (GREEN!?) Armor to the Golden Armored Silvan Units does not have the desired effect of diversity. Gold in itself is not a very standard Armor Color, but it is Metallic and thus believable. GREEN on the other hand ruins an already perfect design IMO. It doesn't look appealing what soever.
• The second point molds into the first because I think the Armor for all the units should stay a standard color. There is not a single elite unit in TATW that has different colored Armor amongst its units. I would even understand Gold and Silver being variations throughout a units armor (though I wouldn't find it appealing for the elves, seeing as they embody harmony and perfection) because those are metallic colors, BUT GREEN?

• Lothlorien .......Golden Wood.....people .....Golden(armour) Wood(green armour)and yes u are right.....no elite units have different armour colors but this is whats happening allmost with frome elite units as well

• in fromes roster loriens elite are the Bodyguards (who have all the same golden armour)

• among fromes elite elven units only the woodland nobles have a variance in colors with the two of them being chromaticaly really close......

• on the other hand chainmail -plates and armour in general can be painted afterall..... cuz if not can someone plz explain this

and the orange chainmail on these units?



so u actually can stand a light blue painted armour or an orange one but again not a green one?
Help me here cause i am confused!!!!!
ok so blue is high elven....... but why shouldnt be green a lorien or mirkwood color?
what is so wrong about that, when u obviously accept colored armor in other units?

edit:
btw u do understand that the pics posted on 1st page are full of colored armor, dont u?

[Smaug]

ouchhhh! ....so much anger m8 ....so much anger!

May I say that I very much like the new unit models in FROME, but the reason I don't play FROME is because the elves lack certain uniformity in their armour. For example the marchwardens, woodland nobles and elvenking's guard have many color variations in their armor, whereas I think elves of all races promote uniformity in their army composition.

I also very much dislike the break you have done to the Galadrhim units' uniformity by adding color variation within the unit. It's simply out of place for the elves (they don't have a feudal knight system where all carry their own colors and banners). I think you should not have touched the colors but instead modify the models' shoulder pad to be less massive. The vanilla shoulder pads looks ridiculous imho. Also the one handed axe of some units is too clumsy for my taste. It should be more elegant and nimble.

That being said, I greatly admire the work put into creating FROME and many of the units from other factions should indeed be adopted to vanilla as they are .

Cheers

(Forgive this post being in a wrong thread)

[Everto]

so u actually can stand a light blue painted armour or an orange one but again not a green one?
Help me here cause i am confused!!!!!
ok so blue is high elven....... but why shouldnt be green a lorien or mirkwood color?
what is so wrong about that, when u obviously accept colored armor in other units?

I did not intend to bash FROME's units, simply disagree on the certain 'look' that was applied by combining green and gold as two armor variations.
I think it can be agreed that the Elven Archer Unit is wearing metallic looking material, which explains its Copper and Silver colored chainmail/breast plate. Its not "Orange" as much as it is copper, which is far more acceptable as a metal than Green.
I like the unit idea such as the Galadrhim Marchwardens, and plus rep for that , but I simply do not think that having the Silvan Elite be divided amongst Gold and Green Armor to be pragmatic or aesthetically appealing. I understand their elves, their a fantasy creation, and that they reside in the woods and so that is where their "Green Armor" comes from.
Now if they were covered with Green Tunics...that'd be understandable and far more aesthetically appealing as well as logical. I think, and I believe many people would agree, not to change the armor from the Golden standard, as it looks very good.

And with the Mithlond Units, they're wearing tunics, their Armor isn't Actually PURPLE, while with the Galadrhim units...the armor actually is GREEN. (the slight bluish tinge on the armor is still arguably metallic) And if you have looked through previous discussions, I believe that the Mithlond Warriors as well as the High Elven Nobles could be changed as well, for I think the Purple is a bit much. Gold is the Color I prefer overall for Elven Elite units, and the argument that you can paint colors on to Armor...well ya, of course you can, but its not exactly very pragmatic.
If the Elven Armies of Lothlorien wanted to wear heavy armor and stay hidden, they'd wrap themselves in green tunics for camouflage, as even painted armor can give away your position from reflections. And why would the Elves paint their armor? They were the greatest smith apart from the dwarves. Make a long story short, the Green Armour doesn't look aesthetically pleasing.

May I say that I very much like the new unit models in FROME, but the reason I don't play FROME is because the elves lack certain uniformity in their armour. For example the marchwardens, woodland nobles and elvenking's guard have many color variations in their armor, whereas I think elves of all races promote uniformity in their army composition.

I also very much dislike the break you have done to the Galadrhim units' uniformity by adding color variation to the unit. It's simply out of place for the elves (they don't have a feudal knight system where all carry their own colors and banners). I think you should not have touched the colors but instead modify the models' shoulder pad to be less massive. The vanilla shoulder pad looks ridiculous imho. Also the one handed axe of some units is too clumsy for my taste. It should be more elegant and nimble.

That being said, I greatly admire the work put into creating FROME and many of the units from other factions should indeed be adopted to vanilla as they are .

Cheers

(Forgive this post being in a wrong thread)

As you see... I am not the only person who holds such an opinion

Koultouras, I understand that Forgotten Realms of Middle Earth is your work, and its far more than any of us petty fools (i admit ) who can only make suggestions have done. I commend you for it, and I believe it is a step in the right direction. The selection of units you've brought is interesting, as well as the new faction layout. I, and others, simply have a different vision for the elves, one more unified in appearance. Don't quote me on that directly, because obviously there are small details that I'd agree can not look harmonious, and still fit in quite well with the 'Elven Look'. That is why Sub Mods exhist, so that certain groups can be appeased if the Vanilla doesn't work for em.

What id like to achieve is to see what units from the Submods could be incorporated into 1.5 (or 1.6 if we must wait that long), and what ideas can be formed into actual units. So lets keep the discussion going, and as little bashing as possible!

Another Possible Idea for A light Elven Ranger unit...Possibly AOR Unit for Mirkwood? As well as armor design

[koultouras]

anyway i suppose its just a matter of preferable colors......
i happen to like green , u happen to like plain armour....conclusion: we agreed on dissagreeing on this
thanks for kind words btw!