Elven Units- Discussion and New Ideas

[Vaul]

The thing about lore is that it is lacking in terms of equipment details... Tolkien did not waste much time describing armour and weapons... he did so only with unique materials, such as mithril... Are we to be bound by this lack of specific lore on the subject?

I think we shouldn't, because a lot of things can be assumed reasonably on account of other factors about which Tolkien was very clear. As I've said in my thread on the matter, Tolkien describes the Noldor elves as the greatest in craftsmanship amongst all races and nations... That single simple fact is enough to do away with the wooden shield for the basic high elven infantry - militia, if you will... Of course, I'm not talking about meddling in units stats, their attack or defense values... simply a matter of aesthetics.

I will go to my grave with these words on my lips - no immortal being, with a cultural heritage of tens of millennia (that includes military tradition unmatched by any force in history other than the Valar's incursion of Beleriand), would be caught dead with a wooden shield on the field of battle!

No matter if he is only 25 or 50 years old, no matter if he was a musician or a dung shuffler in the royal stables... when the ors come a-knockin', the elves would have prepared some kind of decent war gear as part of a emergency provisions programme over the many millennia! Give them metal shields!

[Ozzmosis]

Hmmm, even the eldar units are described as having "wooden shields with a leaf thin layer of very strong and light metal" or something along those lines.

[Vaul]

As for ideas for new units... I don't think we should feel restricted in this area as well...

Look at Stainless Steel for instance... it's a great mod, I myself consider it to be the best (recently started playing again) - but why is it so great? Because of the multitude of units. Simple as that. This is the only reason why I got bored with high elves in TATW... They lack diversity, their units satisfy only the basic categories - light - heavy - elite. In SS, you have a wide choice of units, in cities as well as castles... I would like to see that in TATW, and specifically for high elves... I understand that this is a work in progress, and it's progressing marvelously (can't wait for Arnor) But one can't help but feel that there is a negative bias towards high elven diversity from the lore mafia as I like to call them... But, interestingly, they never seem opposed to the argument that "this is a total war game". It is precisely for that reason that innovation is needed.

[Vaul]

Hmmm, even the eldar units are described as having "wooden shields with a leaf thin layer of very strong and light metal" or something along those lines.

Well, if you notice that I'm really only talking about aesthetics, then you should also notice that you validated my point, because a wooden shield covered with metal is effectively a metal shield in an aesthetic context

[SinerAthin]

Hmmm, even the eldar units are described as having "wooden shields with a leaf thin layer of very strong and light metal" or something along those lines.

That still gives a wooden sheild a metallic look, doesn't it? Seeing as the wood is mainly used inside with the metal on/around it to make it more lightweight and flexible but also more than capable of blocking most incoming damage?

Also, while I understand that in an army, a Militia is not necessarily the best geared, aren't elves by general a lot more wealthy and well off than most normal humans and even dwarves to the point that some basic elven chainmail would be viable?

Even the Gondor militia is better outfitted than the Elven militia in this game who still wear their civilian outfits - not even leather atop of it.

[Jean=A=Luc]

But one can't help but feel that there is a negative bias towards high elven diversity from the lore mafia as I like to call them..

First, there is no 'lore mafia", the general community are not developers and you're overestimating their influence. KK has final say on what happens with the mod.

Secondly why would this mafia be biased against elves but not against, let's say, Dale or Rhun both of which contain much "fan fiction"?

This "victimized by the lore mafia" mindset is typically the result of one not garnering majority support (due to the "far out" nature of the suggestion or it simply being poorly thought out) or due to a feeling of being ineffective because some people believe their ideas and suggestions should automatically result in, at least partial, realization of those ideas (the sooner the better) otherwise one feels "shot down".

When 1.0 first came out both Dale and Eriador were a priority for getting makeovers (for obvious reasons). We got Dale, Eriador/Arnor is just around the corner (along with the new campaign, etc.). After this some kind of evil faction will probably be added to the north to provide more of a challenge to HEs and Eriador (and help out OotMM) and perhaps after that it will be the Elves' turn to have their roster bolstered which practically everyone, even the "mafia" agrees needs to be done. This is not an "official" announcement or anything, merely a likely projection of future progress.

Unlike the posting of warhammer pics, making good designs and realizing them as finished units takes knowledge, dedication and time but I am confident elves will eventually get worthwhile additions.

You aleady have FROME, DAC will probably have loads of new elven units as well and even the lore mod has this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So go easy on the conspiracy theories about this community, will you?

[Lordinquisitor]

As for ideas for new units... I don't think we should feel restricted in this area as well...

Look at Stainless Steel for instance... it's a great mod, I myself consider it to be the best (recently started playing again) - but why is it so great? Because of the multitude of units. Simple as that. This is the only reason why I got bored with high elves in TATW... They lack diversity, their units satisfy only the basic categories - light - heavy - elite. In SS, you have a wide choice of units, in cities as well as castles... I would like to see that in TATW, and specifically for high elves... I understand that this is a work in progress, and it's progressing marvelously (can't wait for Arnor) But one can't help but feel that there is a negative bias towards high elven diversity from the lore mafia as I like to call them... But, interestingly, they never seem opposed to the argument that "this is a total war game". It is precisely for that reason that innovation is needed.

Please stop the uneccessary, unfounded, hate against guys who enjoy the lore. I won`t say more, since Jean said enough, but the next guy who complains about some kind of "Lore Mafia", without good reason, will get his head hacked off.


//To the ideas

Most of the pics you posted are warhammer related and don`t fit aesthetically in the mod at all.

I`d like to see axe wielding elves, too, and maybe some more units.. But i don`t want caledorian dragon princes or white lions of chacre in this mod.

[Vaul]

Well ok, I apologize if my post invoked some form of offense. That being said, I hardly think you can negate my statement that there is indeed a great many people who are fixated on lore to such an extent that inhibits innovation. And this sentence has absolutely no baring on KK and his (private) work, in which I have no insight; his authority on the matter is hardly contested by anyone

Prominent people on these forums have pulled out the lore card more times than I can even count, and most of those times have indeed been to derail innovation threads, granted a great many of those were utterly ridiculous.

As for my belief about the righteousness of my cause - I believe my phrasing is sufficiently polite to dodge the "angry troll" accusation. The "lore mafia" phrase is what some may call a caricature for discussion purposes. And with all due respect, the particular community which might have been offended spare no expense when criticizing different opinions, I am happy to return the favour

[Vaul]

Please stop the uneccessary, unfounded, hate against guys who enjoy the lore. I won`t say more, since Jean said enough, but the next guy who complains about some kind of "Lore Mafia", without good reason, will get his head hacked off.


//To the ideas

Most of the pics you posted are warhammer related and don`t fit aesthetically in the mod at all.

I`d like to see axe wielding elves, too, and maybe some more units.. But i don`t want caledorian dragon princes or white lions of chacre in this mod.

You and Jean Luc have misunderstood completely. I have identified myself as a person who enjoys lore on numerous occasions - I'm simply stating that there is no need for strict lore inquisitors (these people exist in fact, absolutely no offense intended) to interfere with a slight dose of innovation - when concerning new units. As simple as that.

[Everto]

You aleady have FROME, DAC will probably have loads of new elven units as well and even the lore mod has this:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

So go easy on the conspiracy theories about this community, will you?

MY God, this unit looks incredible!

I agree with Jean A Luc when he says that there is no need to bash the TATW community, which is believed to have neglected the elves. I highly disagree because as we can see, they've created an incredible game and background for one of the most amazing mods i've ever seen.

Furthermore the ideas are out there, and I do not want to overload the ranks of the High Elves with units, just create more diversity from what already exists. For example, the unit above has Armor like from the movies, but lacks a helmet. Aesthetically they look supberb, and even elite. Its great stuff.

The inclussion of Metal Troy shields and perhaps Javelins on the High Elven basic infantry is something Im going to keep bringing up, it should be implemented for the simple reasons that I've mentioned before, long military tradition as well as longevity and discipline qould equal a well drilled militia..

[Shocked]

Wellll I would like some new elven units I guess, I wish KK would create the first age total war xD

[koultouras]

strangly i somehow happen to like this thread.....
Ofc not due to Frome's references in it......but mostly because
it is the first thread that oppens a discussion as such ,
giving practical examples and ideas (designs - sketches - even 3d models)and not just words that can hardly be intrerpreted.....
(or at least it is the only i recall doing that)
I admitt though that some picts are too "warhammer-ish",
but even if so, some may get ideas of them that in a whole can turn to be quite
creative.....

I myself am with those being sceptical about elven rosters diversity as well ....... and i still am .....(even after frome)

[Vaul]

I will repeat again, and by doing so end my input on this matter ---> absolutely no bashing of the TATW community was intended by any of my posts. Rather, a statement of disagreement with the possible argument that lore prohibits innovation, an argument that has been seen frequently on these kinds of threads. I myself have seen it a thousand times, I've come to anticipate it, and on this occasion I've chosen to voice my disagreement in advance. My apologies if anyone was offended by my phrasing, any such case was an attempt at provocative humour and nothing more, certainly not a conspiracy theory. I have but the utmost respect for any person who constructively supports the TATW effort, of which I am one of the biggest fans this side of the equator.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Here's some stuff I'd like to see for the elves in the future. Imo it's very important that a unit does more than just look different, it needs a specific role (even a niche one) to fulfill in order for it to provide a satisfying feeling when it's being used. HEs, for example, don't need another heavy cav lancer unit or more swordsmen/archers, whether they're hybrids or otherwise.

High Elves

Something like Lindon Pikes or Lindon Levies. Lindon was one of the few "population centres" where Elves could be found in somewhat larger numbers and it was also pretty much untouched by the ravages of war. So here they might be able to mobilize and train the number of men required to form pike formations.

Even though they'd fall under High Elven jurisdiction these soldiers would mostly be of Sindar origin. They'd fall into the lower tier category (for elven standards) with elaborate hardened leather armour (and possible mail upgrade) and pikes that they are quite skilled with which affords them a pretty high attack compared to their relatively low armour value.

As a Lindon AoR they'd be recruitable in Grey Havens and the north/south Lindon regions (I'm not sure what settlements are in this area), basically whatever falls under "Lindon".

Some kind of white/green/blue colour combination would look nice imo.

..............................................................................................


Imladris Riders (Riders of Imladris)

A heavy horse archer unit. An elite recruitable only in Rivendell. Bows and swords (maybe even bucklers). Colours white and silver, a very swanky show-offy unit that effectively picks off enemies from a far and cuts down those who get close. Quite durable too for a HA unit.


Along with the Eregion Smiths that will possibly make it into vanilla this would be enough imo. I'd definitely at least like to see how this plays out before considering adding any more units.


I personally disagree with giving javelins to HE units the way OP proposes purely for aesthetic/conceptual reasons. It just doesn't feel right. Silvans are a different story however.

As for the light inf. shields the simplest thing to do would be to replace the centre "viking stud" with a star shaped metal object and remove the celtic knot-work, preferably replace it with Tengwar runes or something more fitting.

As low tier units the light inf. don't necessarily need to have an overly exotic look. Even though elves are the "majestic" race not everything about them is always shiny, magical and sprinkled with stardust. They are still a quasy-medieval society (like everyone else) and I bet there is a lot to them that is "dirty" or common looking.

...................................................................................................


Silvan Elves


Horse Wardens

Basically mounted Forest Wardens with throwing javelins and light spears for charging.

As for the regular Forest Wardens I'd prolly replace them with frome ones due to nicer shields and javelins. Silvans should have both a foot and mounted javelin unit imo and the Wardens are perfect for the role as a javelin/melee hybrid.

............................................................................................

In general

I'd like to see less swords in the Silvan army (especially for archers) and instead get a bow/spear hybrid. The Sentinels would be great for this imo.

Maybe high-tier axe-elves (1-handed), possibly as an AoR in Thranduil's Halls. They could be called Sindar Nobles/Princes/Axemen or whatever one comes up with, FROME uses a similar concept iirc.

Well, that's about it.

[Hupsel]

Nice drawings and such however Elves did not wear heavy plate armour because it would decrease their agility. They did not wear slow and heavy weapons that could cut a man in two parts, Elves used weapons that allowed them to be quick and precise. They did not use barded horses because that would slow them down.

The weaponry showed in this topic would appeal more to dwarves who prefered strenght above precision and speed.

[Everto]

strangly i somehow happen to like this thread.....
Ofc not due to Frome's references in it......but mostly because
it is the first thread that oppens a discussion as such ,
giving practical examples and ideas (designs - sketches - even 3d models)and not just words that can hardly be intrerpreted.....
(or at least it is the only i recall doing that)
I admitt though that some picts are too "warhammer-ish",
but even if so, some may get ideas of them that in a whole can turn to be quite
creative.....

I myself am with those being sceptical about elven rosters diversity as well ....... and i still am .....(even after frome)

Im Glad that you like this Thread Koultouras. I too found the arguing and bickering fruitless, and decided to give ideas of my own, instead of bash the already existing issues over and over.

So far here are some of the new Elven Unit Models that have been rendered and that I believe Could Most Defidently be implemented into Vanilla TATW, hopefully 1.5

For the High Elves We have the Following Units...

Eregion Smiths


Imladris Pikemen


There are many more, but these are just two that I believe look supurb.

Here are some finished Models of the Sylvan Elves...

Heavy Galahdrim Archers I presume. I really like the Hood over the Helmet look, as well as the Blue Robes... (Green really isn't my thing when it comes to the Sylvan Army)


Mirkwood Ranger? Don't Quote Me on That, just what I gleamed from it. Either Way, Badasss design, looks incredible as a light elven archer unit of Mirkwood. The Exposed right arm with the tattoo and the left arm with the leather is fenominal stuff. Would be great if could be included!

[Everto]

//

the only thing that could enhance the variation is not to add new units but to add different upgrade-versions of single
units with both weapon and armor upgrades changing their stats and appearance.

That would make much more sence. A little more variation enhancement would be to offer a single
unit in a mounted and in a dismounted version. This would be the best solution to my mind since it
would reflect the long lifespan of the elves in which they make a certain "military career". Like you
already said - elves were only a few in that time and so this would make more sense than the
High Elves popping out hundreds an hundreds of new different units.


//

Jan, couldnt agree more with what you said about creating a Mounted and Dismounted version of a unit. I also believe, and I hope we're kind of on the same page, that variation is good, but in controlled douses. I do not believe in creating an incredibly wide range of units that look different. I believe that the Elves have a certain look to them, such as the armor or the helmets. The EREGION SMITH unit is perfect because it retains the Golden Armor of the Elves that we have become accustomed to, as well as many design aspects. The helmet isn't there, but a small headpiece is, yet the whole of the body is aesthetically very similar to the rest of the High Elven Army.

That is why I do not like the design of the Mithlond Warriors or the High Elven Nobles. They deviate away from that particular "Look". Purple, of all colors, dominates these Elite formations, which I do not approve of simply because of aesthetic issues with it. The Golden Armor is far more appealing.

My Solution? Take the model for the Eregion Smiths, put em on a horse and give them a lance, and Replace them as the Elven Nobles. It'd Look Supburb and Regal. They are an Elite Formation, Proud Gaurds of the Elven Nobility.

And if we do give the Elven units helmets, I think they should be the Noldorin Helms we've become accustomed to. It creates Unity in the Elven Ranks, and since the Elves have perfection and harmony in all aspects of their existence, that should be reflected to a degree in the unity of their armor.
Here Dea Paladin gives a good example. These bad boys look better already!!!

And same goes for the Elven Nobles (unless we change the model to that of the Eregion Smiths, which i believe would look even cooler, open for suggestions)

[Jean=A=Luc]

Everto, go to the lore submod thread, see under "Elven Division" -> Units. There you'll find out more about the Smiths. They're actually supposed to look less noble and more "gritty" which is why they are silvery/metallic instead of golden and why they have chain mail slapped onto their skulls instead of the fancy helmets.

The Warriors of Mithlond also wear a lot of blue (more than purple in fact) because of their connection to the sea and the Grey Havens. But I do agree that the purple tunics are too saturated and stand out more than they should.

The appeal of golden armour is very subjective of course.

[Ellin Athinaios]

That is why I do not like the design of the Mithlond Warriors or the High Elven Nobles. They deviate away from that particular "Look". Purple, of all colors, dominates these Elite formations, which I do not approve of simply because of aesthetic issues with it. The Golden Armor is far more appealing.

They are more blue than purple (and blue is considered highly "elvish").. but in any case, the colour purple has been considered kingly and royal throughout history, commonly used by emperors.. And aesthetic preference and appealing is something subjective, for example I like the colours of these units. And besides, diversity is good.

My Solution? Take the model for the Eregion Smiths, put em on a horse and give them a lance, and Replace them as the Elven Nobles. It'd Look Supburb and Regal. They are an Elite Formation, Proud Gaurds of the Elven Nobility.

No..

And if we do give the Elven units helmets, I think they should be the Noldorin Helms we've become accustomed to. It creates Unity in the Elven Ranks, and since the Elves have perfection and harmony in all aspects of their existence, that should be reflected to a degree in the unity of their armor.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: The helmets used in Warriors of Mithlond and Elven Nobles are in fact more Noldorin than the other ones - the Noldor of the First Age are described wearing "tall helmets". And why should the nobles have the same armour with the rest of the army?

[Everto]

Nice drawings and such however Elves did not wear heavy plate armour because it would decrease their agility. They did not wear slow and heavy weapons that could cut a man in two parts, Elves used weapons that allowed them to be quick and precise. They did not use barded horses because that would slow them down.

The weaponry showed in this topic would appeal more to dwarves who prefered strenght above precision and speed.

I agree with you Hupsel that Elves used weapons that would make them quick and precise, but I think that notion that they were not heavily armored would not necessarily be the case...



These examples I wouldn't call light infantry by any means, but granted, their armor does seem to give them more dexterity and movement than say Gondorian Armor, which looks much heavier and less form fitting.

Yet something Id like to bring up that partially has to do with what your saying is that the light elven units would diffidently be armed in much less constricting material due to their lack of heavy armor. That is why, as I've said many Times , I believe that the Elven Light Infantry of the High Elves should be revamped.

My Ideas are, as forementioned, A Trojan looking Shield for the Light Elven Infantry, Shown Greatly here by Bradd Pitt lol


Two Javelin volleys, so as to create a more diverse unit. As I have stated, there were not many elves at this time, so the elven military would have to make do with the men they had and would utilize them to the best of their abilities, meaning that giving the addition of javelins to the light infantry would be a sound idea because they would not want to sustain heavy losses against much more numerous foes, (and seeing as they'd been fighting the dark forces of Morgoth and Sauron for thousands of years) the elves would have developed a strong military tradition and tactics, as well as the fact that the Elves liked to take down as many of their enemies as possible from a distance.

And on an aesthetic note... the swords On the Light Elven Infantry would look far better if they were the same swords that the Eldar Archers use, curved Elven blades instead of straight Medieval looking ones.