Shield Wall ?!?!

[Tyiallyradil]

Hello!

Im interested what is the effect of shield wall.

Atm Im playing my vh/vh ss6.2/rrc/rc/bgriv late Byzantium campaign.

I've made a couple of Kontratoi (swordsmen)

They have the ability of shieldwall.

Ive tested in custom gamez how good are they when they use shieldwall and when they don't

I've come to the conclusion that they always lost when they were at shieldwall (with or without guard mode as well)

Any suggestions or experience about it how should it be used?

At defense my experience:

Only the front line push the enemy, the rest of the troops remain in the defensive position (so dont move) even with guard mode the front line is aggressive.

So the fact is that their actions kill them.

If my men are in shield wall and i want them to charge do they get the charge bonus?

Iso many many experiences about SW

Regards

[Vaz]

When defending a breach with AP and High Defence units. Due to animations, One Handed AP weapons work the best.

[Sir Walter]

The Shield Wall formation's almost exclusively for defensive troops really. Troops like Huscarls or Scoutatoi can defend a position much better in a shield wall formation, but it won't stand up to a charge from heavy cavalry or infantry like Berdiche Axemen, unless you have seriously good troops and/or the cavalry are charging a spear-armed shield wall. In pitched battles, I use it to occupy enemy infantry while my cavalry outflank and back-charge the enemy formation. It really excels at defending a gateway or similar position though.

[Maltacus]

Ive tested in custom gamez how good are they when they use shieldwall and when they don't

I've come to the conclusion that they always lost when they were at shieldwall (with or without guard mode as well)

Any suggestions or experience about it how should it be used?

How many were the enemy? Shield wall is good, but not so good that it compensates for being outflanked, if that happened to you. It is useful in the field to push forward in a crucial spot quickly at a higher cost and excels in all areas where the flanks are secure (the named gateway, streets etc).

Its value as a defense is mainly that units
a) are packed tightly so you can make a very thick line using minimum space, making it difficult to penetrate
b) stay in the same spot without having guard mode (which seem to make them fight less effectively) activated

In the field, try to have a flanking unit that hasn't shieldwall; they adapt better to being surrounded and can run forward faster if the foe is buckling. I have been unable to find out if the formation change stats at all. Does anyone know about that?

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Have been trying my luck with this ability for quite a while and it really does have its uses but it is a double edged sword.

It seems to allow you to pack more men of a unit in a space, than what would be there if deployed without it. As mentioned above this can leave a unit open to flanking in a field battle (even when it is purely a 1 vs 1 fight).

I have also found that having a unit turn on its shieldwall and making sure it pushes into the enemy formation (for some reason units with shieldwall tend to have their first line fighting while the rest stand back and observe), well seen some pretty amasing results with it but it requires a lot of micro management and can get annoying after a while. Plus it is rare for me to have a battle decided by who wins the infantry fight (Mostly been who managed to outflank who, or who can get his cavalry to charge and break the enemy).

Interesting note on the above is that a unit attacking from the rear using shield wall formations while pushing into the enemy can be really deadly.

One needs to note though that with shieldwall you tend to expose more of the men in a unit to the enemy, so if the enemy is way too superior statwise you will quickly depleet your own men.

[szelbisz]

I use shield wall in siege battles only (doesnt matter if im attacking or defending) and it works very well, the tight alleys give me an advantage of having more men in line than the enemy. The enemy cant breach my lines it is my infantry that does the breaching. As for the "only first line fights" well what are the guys in the back supposed to do ? Throw their axes ? Dont know which bai you are using but in mine the first line advances and the lines behind them follow so that the enemy is pushed back. This is also a bad thing when you defend the gate - my men usually push the enemy out of the gate and get burned by the boiling oil

[Sir Walter]

I use shield wall in siege battles only (doesnt matter if im attacking or defending) and it works very well, the tight alleys give me an advantage of having more men in line than the enemy. The enemy cant breach my lines it is my infantry that does the breaching. As for the "only first line fights" well what are the guys in the back supposed to do ? Throw their axes ? Dont know which bai you are using but in mine the first line advances and the lines behind them follow so that the enemy is pushed back. This is also a bad thing when you defend the gate - my men usually push the enemy out of the gate and get burned by the boiling oil

The guys at the back wait for one at the front to be killed then move forward. I have the pushing problem too, I try to put them on guard and not tell them to attack anything, just stand in the gateway.

[szelbisz]

I dont put my men directly in front of the gate, i put them in the alleys that go from the gate, this way they dont get annihilated when the wave of enemies is pushed out of the gate (damn bug, works the same as when you order your men to assault the walls from the inside of the city/castle and the whole unit is pushed out of the doors and usually annihilates half of the enemy unit that was standing there)

[Point Blank]

Shield wall is bugged. With this attribute Guard mode does not work.

[Vaz]

When you deploy them, press f and d, to set them to shield mode and guard mode, and then as soon as the enemy makes it's way through the gate opening, you counter charge. Then, move pikemen up behind, set in phalanx, but no guard mode. On occasion, I've used the CotHS and similar units (Swiss Guard, etc) to catch the enemy in the back after climbing down ladders.

Remember, animations count - so 2Handed Troops suffer in close confines. Shield and AP units work better than even Shield and 2Handed AP axes.

Edit: I've not had an issue with Guard Mode and Shield Wall. I don't know if I lose the stat benefits, but I know I rarely have them lose formation.

[Point Blank]

If you are not in shield wall, but select guard mode, it has no effect.

[Caesar Clivus]

If you are not in shield wall, but select guard mode, it has no effect.

What about if you are in shield wall and select guard mode?

[Point Blank]

I think also no effect, from memory. Kinda ruins the point of the shield wall. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly.

[axnsan]

I think guard mode only tells your units to keep formation. They also don't follow the enemy if they rout or get out of range, even if you specifically targeted them when they were still in range.

I always set my missile troops to guard mode

[Maltacus]

Interesting note on the above is that a unit attacking from the rear using shield wall formations while pushing into the enemy can be really deadly.

Quite so, however in order to get there open formation is better since the units move faster.

Shield wall is bugged. With this attribute Guard mode does not work.

Does guard mode alter defence at all, or is it just affecting formation behaviour?
Does shield wall alter that?

[AnthoniusII]

Shield wall never let me down in Byzantine units.
Even the low rank Kontaratoi seam to survive easier against cavalry charges when they are in shieldwall formation!
But if you are refering to LAca's kontaratoi pikemen with one hand spear version then yes they lack a bit when in shieldwall because of their dual weapon usage i beleive.

[Sir Walter]

Shield wall never let me down in Byzantine units.
Even the low rank Kontaratoi seam to survive easier against cavalry charges when they are in shieldwall formation!
But if you are refering to LAca's kontaratoi pikemen with one hand spear version then yes they lack a bit when in shieldwall because of their dual weapon usage i beleive.

Scoutatoi own in shield wall.

[Vernah]

I thought guard mode simply prevents your units from chasing the enemy down when they're engaged. They keep formation after the enemy attacks, thats about it. Shield wall puts your units into a very strong defensive formation which pretty much holds out as long as your army isn't routing or the flanks aren't exposed. It's best used against infantry, so its more of a formation for the sword and shield users or well anythign with a shield really. Imo dismounted knights should be able to use this shield wall formation since even the english used it at Crecy. Pretty much a wall of plate and metal to withhold the enemy.

[Sir Walter]

I thought guard mode simply prevents your units from chasing the enemy down when they're engaged. They keep formation after the enemy attacks, thats about it.

On a non-buggy version of guard mode, the unit doesn't move, regardless of whether or not they're engaged.

Shield wall puts your units into a very strong defensive formation which pretty much holds out as long as your army isn't routing or the flanks aren't exposed. It's best used against infantry, so its more of a formation for the sword and shield users or well anythign with a shield really.

Well it is called a shield wall

Imo dismounted knights should be able to use this shield wall formation since even the english used it at Crecy. Pretty much a wall of plate and metal to withhold the enemy.

That's not a bad idea. But some dismounted English knights used pole-axes so that might not work.

[Vernah]

Well ya, I just figure for any knights with a shield haha.