Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
The group I play some of the few games I do play, have moved to a dedicated site due to the fact the clan subforum is hidden beneath a few different layers here. Also the death of the RPG community, which originally kept me around, through no fault of the site. I'm sure I'll still keep visiting/posting, but I don't want to commit to a role if I don't have a specific reason to check TWC every day.
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
Oh right.
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
A rock and a hard place
Citizens avoided the Curia because of the RPG and now, the RPG'ers leave because of the lack of RPG. The place is toxic!
What to do?
The first of all fish
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
I dont think Darling is leaving because of lack of rpg in curia lolOriginally Posted by PikeStance
the Imperishable
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
Merge the Antichamber with the Symposium and move everything else to the rpg section
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
Pike, there was a separate RPG section on the site.
PLVS VLTRA
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
A Concilium to renew the doctrine and the faith. Then we can divide in two groups and conspire in every direction.
Last edited by Bethencourt; June 24, 2015 at 04:35 PM.
Bethencourt's 1800
NAVAL MODDING
& Modeling. Milkshape and UU3D. With (more than) colaboration of Wangrin.
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
Congratulations to Leonidas the Lion - our new Magistrate!
According to the Constitution, Leonidas the Lion must resign as Censor. Please apply for Censor [here]
If you like to ask question, please visit the Debate Thread
Insanity with Dignity
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
Well, well, well. Due to the unfathomably high number of applicants for the Magistrate position we might have to hold local pre-elections first...
"Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
"Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil
On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.
I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.
You beaut and magical
Re: [Election-XIII-2015] Magistrate - Debate Thread
Some numbers:
This will be the 6th magistrate election in the last year.
The average number of candidates, including this election where only one person has applied so far, is 2.
Only once in the past year has there been more than two candidates to choose from.
There have been a total of 6 different candidates for the 6 elections.
Some observations:
The number of choices available in magistrate elections is very limited. It is, on average, a choice for one person or another.
Within that choice, the potential candidates themselves are mostly familiar. Only one person who ran for election in the past year didn't get elected at least once.
Neither of these observations lead to the conclusion that the candidates are bad, only that the choices are limited.
A question:
Why should the election of magistrates remain a function of the Curia?
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
When there is an election there isn't a significant drop in participation. The problem is getting enough people interested in running for magistrate. If this continues, I would not opposed having all three "tribunal" members appointed.
saut dans le vide
Re: [Election-XIII-2015] Magistrate - Debate Thread
I'm not entirely sure that they should, though the alternatives I can think of also have problems that the Curial elections do not.
For example, if the two magistrates were appointed by hex then suitable individuals could easily be chosen who would most likely make good magistrates. Obviously with the current method and the lack of candidates it makes it more likely that a bad candidate will become a magistrate. I mean I could be a terrible choice but unless someone applies fairly sharpish I'm probably going to be the next magistrate. With that in mind the current method is at a disadvantage, whereas hex might be more able to appoint suitable individuals for the role out of members outside the citizenry or even citizens who might never have considered applying even though they'd fit perfectly. The problem here in my eyes is that I think it's good, in theory, to have elected magistrates as it puts members into the tribunal who've been chosen by those outside the administrative staff. This allows people who are challenging their infractions to see that the tribunal will not be biased towards them in favour of moderators (i'm not saying here that having both tribunes and magistrates appointed would create bias, just that elected magistrates shows there is none.)
Another alternative would be to have elections that would allow all members to apply (maybe with the stipulation that they have the same requirements for citizenship i.e having no recent/outstanding infractions so as to show that candidates are well behaved.) This method would definitely have benefits in that I'm sure many would be interested in applying and we would be more likely to get good quality candidates simply by the virtue of us having more candidates altogether. However, a system like this could become broken when it comes to voting, if the voting was done by citizens only then it could become a case where the votes would be spread too thinly, should there be a high number of applicants, with an outright winner being harder to find. On the other hand, if voting was opened up to all members it becomes a possibility that voters would choose those they know and interact with on the forums already, rather than the best candidate for the role simply because they've never heard of that candidate before.
I can think of other systems which are variations of the two above however these are the main alternatives that come to mind. I believe that they, along with Curial elections, have their own merits and problems which in my mind do not make them any better than the current system we use. I do not believe that, in its current state, magistrate elections should remain a function of the Curia, however I cannot think for now of a suitable alternative that I would propose/vote for that doesn't suffer it's own major downfalls. I will continue to think on this, however
Insanity with Dignity
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
I do agree that the election procedure believably conveys the impartiality of the Magistrates as judges in referrals and appeals.
Simply opening up application to a huge variety of members might cause problems, though, both with the actual election (too many canidates -> MTV?) and with the reliability of those candidates. After all, the whole Citizenship brouhaha ensures that the people are somewhat known and of a more or less likable mindset (well, most).
One could try a system like the one for electing Catholic Bishops: The local committee makes up a long list of candidates, sends it to Rome, Rome throws out all but three and sends the reduced list back, from which the the new Bishop is elected by the committee.
In our case the Curia or the entire Membership is the Committee and Hex is Rome (Habemus GED), the initial list being simply the list of all applicants. However, I fear that more work for Hex is not quite a suitable solution.
"Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
"Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil
On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.
I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.
All Powerful Q
Re: [Election-XIII-2015] Magistrate - Debate Thread
I don't think blame-blaming the Curia for the lack of Magistrate candidates is fair. No one involved in the Tribunal has asked any debate questions. No one from the Tribunal posted in the Curia or elsewhere to try and get more candidates.
I also think the last amendment, specifically:
Puts new people off running. Why? I find this point difficult to explain. If you have two experienced Magistrates running against each other in an election, because there's no consecutive terms rule, then whoever loses that will likely run in the next Magistrate election. At which point the chance of someone new to the Magistrate scene running increases because an experienced candidate has been shown to be beatable. But when the experienced candidates basically never run against each other, you're in a spot where a new person is always having to run against an experienced Magistrate candidate - the easiest way to put off most people from running. I'm not sure if I'm making sense with my viewpoint here, I'm trying to convey the human thought processes that take place when someone is thinking of running for an election.In addition, two Magistrates shall be elected for 3 month terms by the procedure in Section 3, Article 2. Applicants cannot have received a Moderation Warning, or a Curial Warning, in at least one year and must have been Citizens for at least 3 months. Magistrates cannot serve consecutive terms.
In terms of this election, I was planning to contest this one but my retirement from Hex has not quite gone through yet. I've been Magistrate once - but there was a bunch of 500 errors at the time and I didn't get a fair go at it. But even I would be hesitant to run against an experienced candidate for Magistrate. For example I looked at this election, saw Dark Storm was running. I knew I wouldn't be eligible quickly enough to run, but if I had, I would definitely wait until the next election in September - simply because Dark Storm and Leo are uber experienced and they won't be able to run. I don't think the current people on the Magistrate merry-go-round are easily beaten, and that's probably what's putting off most who would even think about it. Hopefully the next election will be contested. If only one person is running, I will join the fray on the next one.
I'm strongly against any method of choosing Magistrates whereby Hexagon picks all Tribunes and Magistrates. Because then you're in the position of this supposed 'Independent Appeals System' being very easily painted as the opposite. I think this is a key pillar of the entire appeal system to be honest. If you get rid of the elected element, the Tribunal looks far from independent from a PR view to the point you may as well get rid of the whole thing and have the Moderation Team do all appeals directly. The best thing that can be done is the reversal of the consecutive elections rule - I was for it when it was enacted, but I don't believe it has worked one jot. I might also be in favour of a system where one Magistrate position is elected by the Curia, and the other by the general forum at large - maybe anyway.
Under the patronage of the Legendary Urbanis Legio - Mr Necrobrit of the Great House of Wild Bill Kelso. Honoured to have sponsored these great warriors for Citizenship - Joffrey Baratheon, General Brittanicus, SonOfOdin, Hobbes., Lionheartx10, Mangerman, Gen. Chris and PikeStance.
Insanity with Dignity
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
Interesting, that possible effect of a no-consecutive-terms rule did not occur to me. I would have thought that it is meant to precisely prevent a domination of the experienced members. In fact, had I already been out of the three months "you're still too young" period, I would probably have applied. Nota Bene, newcomers do not know which are the experienced Magistrates (yes, I could check the Tabularium, but that's tedious), so I don't think it would put them off running.
"Non i titoli illustrano gli uomini, ma gli uomini i titoli." - Niccolo Machiavelli, Discorsi
"Du musst die Sterne und den Mond enthaupten, und am besten auch den Zar. Die Gestirne werden sich behaupten, aber wahrscheinlich nicht der Zar." - Einstürzende Neubauten, Weil, Weil, Weil
On an eternal crusade for reason, logics, catholicism and chocolate. Mostly chocolate, though.
I can heartily recommend the Italian Wars mod by Aneirin.
In exile, but still under the patronage of the impeccable Aikanár, alongside Aneirin. Humble patron of Cyclops, Frunk and Abdülmecid I.
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
Basically, what Omni said. Sure you can have all out appointed members and yes, Tribunes are indipendent from HEX (once they are appointed), and yes, HEX does act for the benefit of TWC all the time. And no, even the worst Magistrate cannot ruin the Tribunal system as long as you have sane Tribunes, since he can easily be eliminated if he goes berserk.
However, there are certain benefits tied to having the Maigstrate position an elected one, like f.e. it increases the impression of an indipendent Tribunal, it offers an additional source of recruitement for Moderation and it is a perk for citizens, which in turn "might" work as a tiny incentive for people to become more involved with the site (read: might increase traffic).
Re: [Election-XIII-2015] Magistrate - Debate Thread
Alternative?
You beaut and magical
Re: [Election-XIII-2015] Magistrate - Debate Thread
I'm conflicted about the rule that prevents consecutive terms. It opens up more positions for more people by ensuring that a magistrate doesn't sit in the same position and lock it down by being the incumbent - as y2day did a few years ago. That isn't a criticism of him, just a comment that it reduces the opportunities for new people to enter the Tribunal system. On the other hand, it might be worth it to get rid of the rule with so few candidates. Placing barriers in front of magistrates so that they can't reapply doesn't seem that clever if it means there is only one person who applies.
Magistrates should be elected as it provides a pathway to individual interpretation of the ToS that is separate to the group interpretation that is adopted and enforced by moderation branch. I don't think it should be by appointment only but maybe the franchise could expand.
Would anyone be interested in removing the 3 month limitation for new citizens? Time spent as a citizen has no bearing on being able to interpret the ToS. It might make sense to have a waiting period for a censor, but there's no good reason to have one for a magistrate, especially if the number of candidates is low and people like Iskar would have otherwise applied. Thoughts?
Spoiler for fine print about why I posted at all:
Re: [Election-XIII-2015] Magistrate - Debate Thread
I completely agree. I see no reason why the Magistrate would need to wait an additional 3 months after earning citizenship.
I apologize for my unintentional insinuation by moving the discussion here. I thought GotR made an interesting point/question and wanted to expand it to include the entire curial to discuss it rather than just the candidates.
It is ashamed we do not have more interest. The position isn't that taxing (time consuming) when you think about it.
Re: Curial Election Commentary Thread
1 year without infractions should suffice for Magistrates, no need to be a citizen for 3 months on top of that.
@Pike: no harm done, if you like to do something like this but keep the original post in the thread its poster intended it to be also, simply select it by ticking the box, then choose the moderation tools option "copy posts", insert the url of the thread you want it to copy to and be done with it. Then simply leave an in post paint edit in the newly copied post with a link to the original (and still existing) post in the original thread, explain your reasoing and everything's cool
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