Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Principality of Wallachia

[Bladelok]

How much percent of the MOD is done?

P.S. It looks awesome!

Somewhere between 0 and 100% I reckon!

[Diluviu]

We are here... and we are waiting for this epic mod :X

[The Glorious Moldovan]

Someone needs to reupload the pics using imgur since imageshack doesn't allow you to view them unless you have an account

Also "Wallachia" did not exist as a state back then as it was purely a name designed by foreigners. If you call it that way then Moldova should be "Ungrowlachia". If you choose to name the countries as the inhabitants themselves called them, then it should be Moldova (Țara Moldovei) and Romania (Țara Romînească)

[thekingsmen]

Someone needs to reupload the pics using imgur since imageshack doesn't allow you to view them unless you have an account

Also "Wallachia" did not exist as a state back then as it was purely a name designed by foreigners. If you call it that way then Moldova should be "Ungrowlachia". If you choose to name the countries as the inhabitants themselves called them, then it should be Moldova (Țara Moldovei) and Romania (Țara Romînească)

how did those from wallachia caleed themself?

[The Glorious Moldovan]

how did those from wallachia caleed themself?

Their country Țara Romînească (Literally Romanian land) and themselves Rumîni (People from Rome). I haven't heard or read of any internal document from any period of it's existence that mentioned "wallachia" as the name designated for their state or "wallachians" as the name for their people.

[thekingsmen]

Their country Țara Romînească (Literally Romanian land) and themselves Rumîni (People from Rome). I haven't heard or read of any internal document from any period of it's existence that mentioned "wallachia" as the name designated for their state or "wallachians" as the name for their people.

then ur right

[Hrobatos]

No he isnt. Hungarians call themselves Magyars.But still we named them Hungarians.

[thekingsmen]

No he isnt. Hungarians call themselves Magyars.But still we named them Hungarians.

i know that,how did "we"call the people from wallachia in that time?

[The Glorious Moldovan]

No he isnt. Hungarians call themselves Magyars.But still we named them Hungarians.

Then in the context of the game, why do you call it "Moldova" as the people called their country themselves and as internal documents mention it, when most of the world called it either "Mavro-Wlachia" "Bogdanowlachia" or "Bogdan-ili" depending on which country you're reffering to how it named it, yet refuse to call the country of the romanians, the way it's natives called it?

Makes no sense to me, behind the logic of this reasoning.

[thekingsmen]

Then in the context of the game, why do you call it "Moldova" as the people called their country themselves and as internal documents mention it, when most of the world called it either "Mavro-Wlachia" "Bogdanowlachia" or "Bogdan-ili" depending on which country you're reffering to how it named it, yet refuse to call the country of the romanians, the way it's natives called it?

Makes no sense to me, behind the logic of this reasoning.

wait this is hard to folow

wallahians called them self...


and moldavians....

romanoi??

it would be strange if they called themself wallachs (strangers) and i know they called theyr languige romani so if they knew that theyr lang is romani how didnt they know that they are all the same romanic people

[The Glorious Moldovan]

wait this is hard to folow

wallahians called them self...


and moldavians....

romanoi??

it would be strange if they called themself wallachs (strangers) and i know they called theyr languige romani so if they knew that theyr lang is romani how didnt they know that they are all the same romanic people

As far as i'm aware, the first written record of the people from "wallachia" calling their country "Romanian land" dates since 1521 in Neacșu's letter. There are other instances for example where people from certain parts of Transylvania, speaking the same dialect of the romanians identified with them aswell.

Keep in mind, people from "wallachia" are the only romanian people who defined the country they lived in as "Romanian land" ergo, Rumînia, while moldovans identified themselves as moldovan and their country Moldova, while strangers called it a name containing "wlach" in it.

My point is that, either call them both the way the world called them (Wallachia and Mavrowlachia), or call them both the names the native people called them, themselves (Rumînia and Moldova).

[Darios]

*sigh*

I'll clear this up.

Both Moldovans and Wallachians used the ethnonym "Români/Romîni" (Romanians) to describe themselves and the name "Moldovan" initially had a rather political approach (an inhabitant of Țara Moldovei) that due to its extremely rural nature eventually became more of an ethnonym (especially before and after the Russian conquest of eastern Moldova (Bessarabia)).

"Wallachian/Vlach" is a term of Germanic origin that referred to Latin speakers in the lands that they occupied. Romanians never referred to themselves as that and only foreigners did so. Wallachia was referred to as Țara Romaneasca by its inhabitants and Moldova was referred to as Țara Moldovei and Молдаваская Земля (<-- especially in the church and in official documents). The term "Români/Romîni" does stem from the Latin term "romanus" but Romanians are simply one of the many groups of non-Slavicized people in the Balkans who continued to refer to themselves as "romanus" (Aromanians use Armãnji while Greeks used "Rhomanoi" until the 19th century) during the medieval period. I believe that medieval Wallachians and Moldovans were completely oblivious to their supposed legendary Roman origin (Bulgaria (Thrace) and Serbia (Illyria) were ironically far more Romanized) until the 16th century when Latin-speaking Western European travelers arrived and noticed the similarities between the languages and Romanian boyars went to study in Latin universities in Krakow. It became a national ideology during the 19th century.

I know that it's the Balkans and this stuff is very confusing for a non-Romanian so don't beat yourself up over it. I have no real issue with Țara Romaneasca being referred to as "Wallachia" in the mod as it is an English speaking mod and the game is designed for an international audience. ^_^

[thekingsmen]

*sigh*

I'll clear this up.

Both Moldovans and Wallachians used the ethnonym "Români/Romîni" (Romanians) to describe themselves and the name "Moldovan" initially had a rather political approach (an inhabitant of Țara Moldovei) that due to its extremely rural nature eventually became more of an ethnonym (especially before and after the Russian conquest of eastern Moldova (Bessarabia)).

"Wallachian/Vlach" is a term of Germanic origin that referred to Latin speakers in the lands that they occupied. Romanians never referred to themselves as that and only foreigners did so. Wallachia was referred to as Țara Romaneasca by its inhabitants and Moldova was referred to as Țara Moldovei and Молдаваская Земля (<-- especially in the church and in official documents). The term "Români/Romîni" does stem from the Latin term "romanus" but Romanians are simply one of the many groups of non-Slavicized people in the Balkans who continued to refer to themselves as "romanus" (Aromanians use Armãnji while Greeks used "Rhomanoi" until the 19th century) during the medieval period. I believe that medieval Wallachians and Moldovans were completely oblivious to their supposed legendary Roman origin (Bulgaria (Thrace) and Serbia (Illyria) were ironically far more Romanized) until the 16th century when Latin-speaking Western European travelers arrived and noticed the similarities between the languages and Romanian boyars went to study in Latin universities in Krakow. It became a national ideology during the 19th century.

I know that it's the Balkans and this stuff is very confusing for a non-Romanian so don't beat yourself up over it. I have no real issue with Țara Romaneasca being referred to as "Wallachia" in the mod as it is an English speaking mod and the game is designed for an international audience. ^_^

well it is but at least there is a consenzus or are the moldavians of today negating that they are etnicly the same as romanians? i know that they call theyr languige moldavian

[The Glorious Moldovan]

Both Moldovans and Wallachians used the ethnonym "Români/Romîni" (Romanians) to describe themselves(especially before and after the Russian conquest of eastern Moldova (Bessarabia)).

This is nonsense. Only in the medieval chronicles did they write that moldovans speak the same language as romanians and have their origins from Rome, but never did they identified with romanians themselves and their country. Moreso, this is refferenced by the chronicler's choice of using "moldovan language" and "land of the moldovans", i.e stressing out the fact that they identify differently, and while there are some common origins with the romanians, they are ultimately not of the same identity.

and the name "Moldovan" initially had a rather political approach (an inhabitant of Țara Moldovei) that due to its extremely rural nature eventually became more of an ethnonym

No such thing as "rural nature" of a term. Moldova had a completely different evolution of it's history from the other romanian principalities so it's only natural people would identify with something only they have experienced. It's generally accepted that it was thanks to Ștefan that Moldova reached it's maximum extent and thus left heritage for future generations to create a separate, moldovan identity.

[The Glorious Moldovan]

well it is but at least there is a consenzus or are the moldavians of today negating that they are etnicly the same as romanians? i know that they call theyr languige moldavian

Look, will you agree to the fact that we, humans, part of the homo sapiens family are descendents from apes? or just the simple fact that we shared, at some point in distant time, a common ancestor with them?

It's the same situation in this case. We shared common proto-romanian ancestors with the romanians during the ethnogenesis, but ultimately we evolved separately and have evolved to have a separate identity.

Because, by the logic of "we all speak the same language and are therefor the exact same people" it would mean we are all europeans just because we share a common Proto-indo-european ancestor? It's political nonsense.

TooLongDidn'tRead: All moldovans are romanians, but not all romanians are moldovans

TooLongDidn'tRead:TooLongDidn'tRead: Moldovans are to Romania what Bavaria is to Germany

[Darios]

well it is but at least there is a consenzus or are the moldavians of today negating that they are etnicly the same as romanians? i know that they call theyr languige moldavian

Em...sorta. Rural Moldovans (on both sides of the Prut) have indeed used "Moldovaneste" as a name of their language but it was vastly overblown by Russian propaganda during the 20th century. Everyone also sorta understands that Moldovans and Romanians are the same ethnicity but the issue became so politically motivated during the 19th and 20th centuries that there are no real right or wrong answers to these questions today. For example, people in the Republic of Moldova today are indeed a bit 'distinct' in appearance compared to people in Romania. Moldovan and Romanian are essentially the same language but there really does exist a particular accent/dialect among Moldovan people (on both sides of the Prut). It's a really weird situation and Russian propaganda (+ Romanian nationalism) has essentially created one of the weirdest controversies in Eastern Europe))))

No such thing as "rural nature" of a term. Moldova had a completely different evolution of it's history from the other romanian principalities so it's only natural people would identify with something only they have experienced. It's generally accepted that it was thanks to Ștefan that Moldova reached it's maximum extent and thus left heritage for future generations to create a separate, moldovan identity.

It goes without saying that Moldova had a slightly different evolution than that of Wallachia. Wallachia was heavily influenced by Greek and Balkans culture while Moldova was more part of the East Slavic (Tivertsi, Ulichs, Brodnici) world. I also know that Moldovan people historically referred to themselves interchangeably as "Moldovans" or "Romanians." It still sorta holds true today. Of course, a Moldovan living in a village would identify more with their local political name "Moldovan" rather than nostaglia for an empire (Roman) that had been dead for 1500 years. Wallachians never developed a more distinct name for reasons I cannot explain.

[The Glorious Moldovan]

I also know that Moldovan people historically referred to themselves interchangeably as "Moldovans" or "Romanians." It still sorta holds true today. Of course, a Moldovan living in a village would identify more with their local political name "Moldovan" rather than nostaglia for an empire (Roman) that had been dead for 1500 years. Wallachians never developed a more distinct name for reasons I cannot explain.

There's a bunch of points i'd want to adress in your post but i'd go very off-topic if i do that.

Moldovans (as specially moldovan intellectuals) during history, indeed took the decision to call themselves and their people moldovans, when it came to differentiate themselves from romanians, and then calling themselves and their people the scientific way, romanians, when it came to differentiating themselves from slavs. Romanians kinda just "were there" during history, having no significant evolution of their own, which is probably why they called themselves romanians and their land rumînia without further meanings.

Still, i insist that this mod, that claims to represent historical accuracy of the balkans from the 14-15th century, name the country of the romanians Rumînia, even if it doesn't fit into the current nationalist narrative of the intellectual class

[Darios]

Moldovans (as specially moldovan intellectuals) during history, indeed took the decision to call themselves and their people moldovans, when it came to differentiate themselves from romanians, and then calling themselves and their people the scientific way, romanians, when it came to differentiating themselves from slavs. Romanians kinda just "were there" during history, having no significant evolution of their own, which is probably why they called themselves romanians and their land rumînia without further meanings.

I read a book recently (the author is Romanian but the title and his name escapes me) that argues that the Romanian language originally arose as a Latin dialect among Romanized Daco-Thracians in Serbia and Oltenia and subsequently spread into Bulgaria, Transylvania, and other parts of the Carpathians during the early Middle Ages. While the wealthier and more heavily Romanized trading cities of Illyria and Thracia were prime targets for invaders/migrators like the Slavs (and subsequently lost its Roman identity), the more rural former Roman military province of Dacia was simply ignored and the people managed to maintain a Romanized identity and continued to call themselves "romanus." I do not believe that this occurred in Moldova (especially on the plains of Basarabia). There the Slavic (and probably Latin as well) speaking Antes dwelt and later evolved into entites like the Ulichs and Tivertsi. At the same time (think the story of Dragoș crossing the mountains in search of aurochs), more Romanian speakers began to migrate and settle east of the mountains as the world stabilized more, mingled with the Slavic speakers along the river (Prut, Nistru, Siret) valleys, and a new entity began to form. It's hard to make a definitive hypothesis because it's too much of a politically charged subject but I think that it makes sense. We have to put aside our modern political feelings and remember that medieval Romanians/Moldovans felt no connection to Trajan, they spent their time praying in Slavonic and trying to connect their folklore to what they read in the Bible (wondering why every story mentions the Jews but not them ))))) Wallachia managed to maintain a slightly stronger "Romanized" identity because they always outnumbered and quickly assimilated the Slavic and Cuman migrators, hence the name Țara Româneasca. During the 1500s, it is estimated that 1/3 of Moldovans were Rusyn speakers. Romanianization obviously took place at a far slower rate there.

[vasiooo]

So this mod is alive or not ?
I created a coa for Wallachia on WIkipedia, after the medieval coat, so if this mod is not dead, it should use this coat.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...Voivodship.png

[Hrobatos]

Im deleting all off-topic posta, make a new topic for questions of ethno-genesis.