Public Research - Medieval Balkan Armies

[phoenix[illusion]]

Some more figures:

Serbian Knight XIII century:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And whole bunch of figures

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Matthæus]

One question?
Did the Serbs used the german salled helmet?Are they any archeological proves for that?

stone helmet from Smederevo

[matija191]

of course there did use them. in 15th century it was popular in Despotate of Serbia

this is the picture of town guard, taken from here:
http://www.maketarskikutak.com/index...c&topic=4135.0

yes I seen many pictures of serbian warriors with sallet, but I don´t know for any salled helmet found in Serbia or pictures of that time showing the Serbs with salled.Do you have some informations about that?

[matija191]

stone helmet from Smederevo

Thanks Matko!

P.S. Forget my last post

[Son of Fire]

Well when it comes to plate, there are two main styles... German, and Italian (English Greenwich Style coming on later) that we are currently aware of...
Considering the good relationship between German and Serbia during the middle ages (as well as mercenaries), it does make some sense.

As for archeological finds...
To my understanding they are scant...
But...
Keep a few things in mind... firstly, untreated metal tends to not keep very well.
And Second, the number of digs done is still very minimal compared to the number in other nations.
And finally, during occupational periods the armour may have been looted, taken or undergone some other form of hazard.

One last thing though...
Keep in mind that Serbia had hundreds of years of frequent, if not constant warfare from it's initial Slav settling, to the end of the medieval period.
And each generation was equipped for battle, which makes thousands upon thousands of soldiers, all with various bits of armour and weaponry.
And out of all those many thousands we have found... a few dozen?
I am not sure of the amount really, but it pales into comparison what has be utilized and made.
So what that in mind, understand that there is a lot we haven't even seen yet...
Kind of like the elusive "war brand" seen in many illustrated manuscripts and bibles, but there has yet to be one found...

[Matthæus]

That's interesting... that is twice now that I have seen Serbs with a double layer of mail...
I wonder where they get the idea for that, whats the precedent?

that on top is probably not another layer of mail but lamellar or scale armor corset.

As for archeological finds...
To my understanding they are scant...
But...
Keep a few things in mind... firstly, untreated metal tends to not keep very well.
And Second, the number of digs done is still very minimal compared to the number in other nations.
And finally, during occupational periods the armour may have been looted, taken or undergone some other form of hazard.

One last thing though...
Keep in mind that Serbia had hundreds of years of frequent, if not constant warfare from it's initial Slav settling, to the end of the medieval period.
And each generation was equipped for battle, which makes thousands upon thousands of soldiers, all with various bits of armour and weaponry.
And out of all those many thousands we have found... a few dozen?
I am not sure of the amount really, but it pales into comparison what has be utilized and made.
So what that in mind, understand that there is a lot we haven't even seen yet...
Kind of like the elusive "war brand" seen in many illustrated manuscripts and bibles, but there has yet to be one found...

well keep in mind that there are 3 or so complete milanese (Italian) armor suits in whole Europe.
one which is located in Glasgow museum is only of this kind in UK. not even heavyweight museums like "Metropolitan" in NY, USA have complete milanese.

Same is with Gothic armours, and situation is even worse with armoes from 1400's or earlier.
Famous armor from "Metropolitan" is actually a mostly reconstruction from early 1920's with some original parts.
http://www.metmuseum.org/works_of_ar...=40001420&vT=1

[Son of Fire]

Could be... but I have seen an illustration with a mail hauberk and a brynie over top of that... seems a bit odd to me, but who knows?

Exactly... there is very little out there...
My reason for bringing it up is that sometimes some folks think "well, if we haven't found it in a dig, then didn't have it"... which if we go by that logic, barely anyone had any armour...

[Matthæus]

My reason for bringing it up is that sometimes some folks think "well, if we haven't found it in a dig, then didn't have it"... which if we go by that logic, barely anyone had any armour...

then you look for written or pictorial sources.
those are more common.

[Son of Fire]

Of course... pictorial, literal, or statues and carvings...

But even then, I am fairly certain that only touches on a fraction of what was used by the soldiers at the time...

[slavic_crusader]

people recyle metal as well. So perhaps that too should be kept in mind.

[Son of Fire]

Truly... that was very frequent as well...

[slavic_crusader]

[phoenix[illusion]]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Son of Fire]

I think that is a figure based on a Osprey pic... Hungarian Knight...
Still a cool looking figure though...

[phoenix[illusion]]

Found some fine books of Balkan on English
it was written by John V. A. Fine

The Early Medieval Balkans
The Late Medieval Balkans

good information about balkans, very detailed.

[Bosnian_King]

Found some fine books of Balkan on English
it was written by John V. A. Fine

The Early Medieval Balkans
The Late Medieval Balkans

good information about balkans, very detailed.

Yes Phoenix. I am glad that you finally found John V.A. Fine. I hope you will read this book and not only post it here without reading it. Because when you are finished with reading this book you will never again say that "Serbs and Croats" were the only slavic tribes which invaded the balkans. John Fine is showing sources from the Franks which are testifieng about the arrival of Slavs in the balkans and about the crossings of the Sava river by "slavic tribes" more than 100 years before the first time serbs or croats have been mentioned mentioned in history. So I really hope you will read this book and I hope you will learn something from it and be more carefull when saying in the future things like:"Serbs and Croats were the only slavic tribes which invaded the balkans..."

good luck

[phoenix[illusion]]

Yes Phoenix. I am glad that you finally found John V.A. Fine. I hope you will read this book and not only post it here without reading it. Because when you are finished with reading this book you will never again say that "Serbs and Croats" were the only slavic tribes which invaded the balkans. John Fine is showing sources from the Franks which are testifieng about the arrival of Slavs in the balkans and about the crossings of the Sava river by "slavic tribes" more than 100 years before the first time serbs or croats have been mentioned mentioned in history. So I really hope you will read this book and I hope you will learn something from it and be more carefull when saying in the future things like:"Serbs and Croats were the only slavic tribes which invaded the balkans..."

good luck

it is well known that slavs, avars etc. invaded Balkans before croats and serbs. but they didn't excised for so long. i've never said that serbs and croats were the only tribes, just mentioned them as primus trribes, cause they became dominant over other slav tribes on balkans, and it is a bit odd talking about other tribes, cause they didn't have any role in history. if you want to go that detailed in history of nation, man, what a lot work would be for some great nations like Russian, England, German...

[Bosnian_King]

it is well known that slavs, avars etc. invaded Balkans before croats and serbs. but they didn't excised for so long. i've never said that serbs and croats were the only tribes, just mentioned them as primus trribes, cause they became dominant over other slav tribes on balkans, and it is a bit odd talking about other tribes, cause they didn't have any role in history. if you want to go that detailed in history of nation, man, what a lot work would be for some great nations like Russian, England, German...

As far as I know John Fine is talking about those primarly tribes of slavs (which were not serbs or croats) which slavanised the old-sitting non-slavic people. So you are posting John Fine, a respected modern historian but you are not taking him serious? According to him it were not the serbs and croats which slavanised the peoples of the balkan but those tribes which entered the balkans much earlier. So according to him, when the serbs and croats arrived, the balkans were already slavanised.

[phoenix[illusion]]

As far as I know John Fine is talking about those primarly tribes of slavs (which were not serbs or croats) which slavanised the old-sitting non-slavic people. So you are posting John Fine, a respected modern historian but you are not taking him serious? According to him it were not the serbs and croats which slavanised the peoples of the balkan but those tribes which entered the balkans much earlier. So according to him, when the serbs and croats arrived, the balkans were already slavanised.

information are nice. well, all history facts must be taken with doubt.
it is a nice theory, i have to say that i believe in one sort of way, but still, major role in slavicism of local balkan tribes were by serbs and croats, cause they were living there the longest and made their states.

[Bosnian_King]

information are nice. well, all history facts must be taken with doubt.
it is a nice theory, i have to say that i believe in one sort of way, but still, major role in slavicism of local balkan tribes were by serbs and croats, cause they were living there the longest and made their states.

Yes serbs and croats were,most likely, the biggest slavic tribes which were reccorded and which invaded the balkans. But the fact remains that there were arrivals of clans morer than 100 years before serbs or croats were mentioned. And it is interesting that older Serbian and Croatians historians very often liked to ignore that.

The source which is mentioning serbs and croats is the DAI and as far as I know there is not another real source. So in fact we know very very little. A Croatian historian, for example, mostly concludes from this DAI that Croats conquered the lands from the Avars and a Serb historian concludes that Serbs first conquered this land. This is because the DAI is a very limited source and it is our only source, you can conclude everything from it.

But it is important that there are other sources like the "Frankish anals" which present a very other view on the slavanisation of the balkans by other slavic tribes who are just mentioned as "slavs" and that's why John is a good and more neutral historian to read.