Public Research - Medieval Balkan Armies

[Matthæus]

well it is like this today too. you can have superior tanks for example but if you send them unsupported by infantry or artillery charging straight into enemy army which is dug ind and has made obstacles and put mines in front of their positions then they will not preform well in that battle.

at Nicopolis Crusader army (French , Burgundians) did just that. their heavy cavalry rushed straight into Turkish army without Hungarians which were left way behind. Even when they (Crusaders) saw that charge is impossible due to obstacles that Turks dug in front of their lines they continued with the attack dismounting and proceeding on foot under heavy fire. and this ended in disaster.

as you can see it was lack of discipline and reliable command structure that was a big disadvantage of most European armies.
when Hungary employed a large number of disciplined mercenaries they did much well in battle. Today mercenaries have a bad name "dogs of war", but at those times they were closest to professional modern soldiers than any other branch of military.

When a big army assembled with more than 10,000 troops it was heterogeneous made of various nobles from around the country and their contingents which were almost impossible to command in battle. so much tactical plans drawn before battle were ruined by some fool who could not keep his nerve and charged the enemy when shouldn't (Varna).

[slavic_crusader]

Dont they ever use instraments or signals??

[NikeBG]

Of course they do, there can't be an army without some form of battle communication. The problems of those mentioned armies, however, is that everybody wants aaaaaall the glory for himself. We can see that in another and earlier crushing defeat of the knights here - Adrianople, 1205. One day the Cumans harass the knights, trying to lure them to a great distance, but the knights get tired and return. In the evening the emperor decides that the Cumans are trying to lure them to a trap and that, if they attack again, the knights should just hold ground and not charge in. And what happens the next day? The Cumans come back, of course, and one of the bigger knights (Louis of Blois, naturally a Frenchie) sends a message to his emperor "Hey, I'm going after the Cumans! Follow me and share my glory!", which ends in his head being cut off and his emperor rotting in the enemy's dungeons. Funnily enough, it seems it's almost always the French knights who screw things up, by wanting to charge in, no matter what (i.e. opposite the "French always surrender" myth).

[matija191]

Perhaps some rep+ for my effort?

[Son of Fire]

@ Slavic Crusader...
Thanks man...

Basically the biggest flaw with European armies was lack of communication and a clear command structure...
The command structure was based on noble rank... which in some was has merit, but in a great many others is flawed... the most obvious being lack of merit determining command of troops.
Lack of over all communication between nations and cultures also compounded this...
Like when the Mongols invaded, Europe didn't provide a unified front and allowed their armies to be picked off piecemeal...
Further, the Mongols didn't really change their tactics for any major battles... pretty much the feigned retreat... and perhaps if open lines of communication had be there, and the Europeans heeded that, some of the battles would have not been so easy for the Mongols...
As I stated with Richard... the Muslims in the Holy Land used the similar tactics, and he saw that and prepared for it... and in doing so, he beat them in every encounter...

So I do think a strong commander can keep European forces in line... but it takes a truly exceptional leader to reign in the egos of his nobles and keep them in line... it can, and has happened... just not all that often...

As for communication...
Yes, the Europeans utilized forms of it... horns, drums, flags, etc... though to what degree which army and commander did... well that all depends...

Finally, the glory...
Yup... the Europeans love their glory... and the most tends to be found mano eh mano... man to man...
There is a theory that this evolved from classical Greek culture, as anything beyond throwing a spear was not viewed as gloriously or as honorably as melee combat. And considering that many of the European cultures there after seemed to share that mindset (and view Greece as the cradle of European culture via Hellenism) it does make some sense.
That trait seems to have carried on to the middle ages... with the most glorious actions being the one on one of champions of opposing forces...
Too bad in a way though... since in a sense it did kind of stymie military evolution in the West... though Ironically enough, the Byzantine embraced combined arms tactics...

Meh, go fig...

[Matthæus]

to matija191

http://i41.tinypic.com/1565sg2.jpg
those 2 are supposed to be Roman soldiers. they are from clock tower mechanism in Dubrovnik.
so those are not soldiers from Renaissance - it is how people from Renaissance period thought Romans look like.

PS
that knight from Dalmatinac is hell of an find

[phoenix[illusion]]

About the Schiavona (pre-Schiavona, so called "Serbian Sword"):

The sword it self has origins in so called Serbian sword. Some parts of Serbian coast after downfall of Serbia accepted Venetian republic, and they were added to Dalmatia. Mercenary soldiers known as "pronije" (system of solders and name comes from Byzantine mercenary soldiers "pronoia") were hired and they spread their weapons. This is not surprising since at the time before downfall of Serbian despotate, Serbian despot Stefan Lazarevic had a "school of fighting" for knights and nobles and students from all across Europe came to him to learn. Farther there are archaeological evidence as well as mentioning in archives of Dubrovnik by master swordsmith, who describes "Serbian sword". Similar designs of sword hilt are found in Hungary and Greece (Byzantine Empire) so it could be connected to those nations as well.

[Matthæus]

About the Schiavona (pre-Schiavona, so called "Serbian Sword"):

The sword it self has origins in so called Serbian sword. Some parts of Serbian coast after downfall of Serbia accepted Venetian republic, and they were added to Dalmatia. Mercenary soldiers known as "pronije" (system of solders and name comes from Byzantine mercenary soldiers "pronoia") were hired and they spread their weapons. This is not surprising since at the time before downfall of Serbian despotate, Serbian despot Stefan Lazarevic had a "school of fighting" for knights and nobles and students from all across Europe came to him to learn. Farther there are archaeological evidence as well as mentioning in archives of Dubrovnik by master swordsmith, who describes "Serbian sword". Similar designs of sword hilt are found in Hungary and Greece (Byzantine Empire) so it could be connected to those nations as well.

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html
http://www.myarmoury.com/review_dt5152.html

you will not be surprised that the same sword is called "Serbian" (in Serbia), "Bosnian" (by Bosnians) and Dalmatian (in Croatia). and of course texts from one country do not say a thing about sources from other. this is so typical for this part of Balkan.
it seems that this type of sword was used in all of 3 countries above. there are dozens of those swords in various museums today. I have seen some in Dubrovnik, Venice and Zemaljski muz. Sajevo, povijesni muzej Zagreb... I think there is one in Belegrade military museum under "weapons from medieval Bosnia".

name means "Slavic (sword)" and got its name because Slav mercenaries in Venetian service used it. And most of those were Croats from Dalmatia.

"schiavona" is development of an earlier design called "schiavonesca" which was widely used in Croatia, Bosnia and in Serbia too. but that Serbia is their place of origin looks like wishful thinking. anyway Serbia and Bosnia were long gone (overrun by the Ottomans) when "schiavona" was introduced.

but there is another type of sword that is typical for Eastern Bosnia and, Albania and Serbia (around Zeta today in Montenegro) :

lower rank - those with curved hilts. and we have it in our mod - look our vlastela:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

PS
we already have "schiavonesca" in TTW and upgraded "Vlastela" will use it (Bosnian and Serbian).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[phoenix[illusion]]

yep matko, i know that we have serbian/bosnian kind of sword in the mod

[phoenix[illusion]]

most of the serbian sources present serbian soldiers not in the way they were.
english books are more accurate than serbians in looks of soldiers, but these serb figures are quite historically right. it's actually how did serbian soldiers look, except heraldry, which are some right, but some wrong

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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[phoenix[illusion]]

also i've found this

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Stefan Lazarevic


Balsic Family

[Son of Fire]

Fighting schools, and fight masters were fairly common in the middle ages, with many manuals surviving to this day.
People tend to forget that knights and their ilk were well trained, and highly effective martial artists...

Though I think Pronijar (sp?) are just people who had lands to funding that was given by appointment, and was just non-hereditary... compared to Bashtinas which were either freeholds or alods, which were hereditary...
Though it does make sense to give such appointments to mercenaries in lieu of payment or in addition to, to maintain loyalty and service...

@ Matko...
I dig the Sword pics...
I can even see some late ridged longswords in there... which make sense when dealing with plate armours...

I do dig the figure pics though...
I have most, but there is one in there I didn't have, the one with the great bacsinet...
Most of them I would only tweak a bit...
Though their armour seems very Germanic... the Italian style at the time was very smooth, with just mail on the feet, while Germans used a lot of visored salets, with armour with lots of ridges and fluting....

Also I did notice that one of the earlier Croation town guards was acctually a Serb town guard, but at that later point in history, the differences wouldn't be that significant...

[Matthæus]

Also I did notice that one of the earlier Croation town guards was acctually a Serb town guard, but at that later point in history, the differences wouldn't be that significant...

http://i40.tinypic.com/2aq7b8.jpg
true. he is probably a Serb, but the equipment vas very similar at that time.
however this is probably a figure made by "Predrag i Nenad" or its copy.
those 2 make bloody good figures. i wish i had pictures of them in better resolution.
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4561/handgunner.jpg

but there is a possibility that it is someones else, hard to tell.
so Croatian town guard would look almost the same

[Son of Fire]

Yup... the pic you posted, I have one with the base in it, and on the plaque it says Belgrade town guard circa whatever...

Yeah, the do some nice work... by and large I do like their sculpts...

[phoenix[illusion]]

you will not be surprised that the same sword is called "Serbian" (in Serbia), "Bosnian" (by Bosnians) and Dalmatian (in Croatia).]

just to add, well, i thought so as you've said. information as "serbian sword" are pretty much nationalistic, than the real name, but i just wanted to post it

[phoenix[illusion]]

Found some more pics:

Left: King Milutin
Center: Tsar Dusan
Right: Zmaj Ognjen Vuk (Dragon Fiery Wolf) (His real name was Vuk Grgurevic)



Also i've fount this forum, it is Serbian forum with figures:
http://www.maketarskikutak.com/index...60c&board=35.0

There are nice figures on that forum, like Tsar Dusan



also some of the rulers

[Son of Fire]

That's interesting... that is twice now that I have seen Serbs with a double layer of mail...
I wonder where they get the idea for that, whats the precedent?

[matija191]

Pictures of warious weapons used by Croatians:
http://www.kultura.hr/hr/Multimedija...1/(image)/3831

yatagans with islamic simbols are, obviously, used by Turks....

[matija191]

One question?
Did the Serbs used the german salled helmet?Are they any archeological proves for that?

[phoenix[illusion]]

One question?
Did the Serbs used the german salled helmet?Are they any archeological proves for that?

of course there did use them. in 15th century it was popular in Despotate of Serbia

this is the picture of town guard, taken from here:
http://www.maketarskikutak.com/index...c&topic=4135.0