How to win as an out-dated faction?

**meese** · April 18, 2010, 08:54 AM

Bah! Let the imagination run free!

Flying horses. That's what we need in this game. Bloody cannon towers wouldn't touch them.

**Sir Walter** · April 18, 2010, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by meese

Bah! Let the imagination run free!

Flying horses. That's what we need in this game. Bloody cannon towers wouldn't touch them.

Swiss pikemen-loaded ones would.

**napoleonic** · July 17, 2010, 07:55 PM

I've found norway's and denmark's infantries are not as fearful in vanilla

foot norse war clerics lose to chivalric knights (french) and armoured swordsmen (england), don't even mention HRE's.... armor piercing my ass.... lol
kings' hirdsmen (norway) seem to have excellent stats, however, that's just stats..... they can't even win vs broken lances....
vikings are even weaker.....

so, what are those scandinavians good at?

**napoleonic** · July 17, 2010, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by meese

Halberd wielding things that can form spearwall. Something lovely like 8 attack with armour piercing and 19 defence.

That's what they look like:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

And that's what the battle score looks like when they sit tight:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Those were mainly made by the Obudshaer surprisingly. Some 600 from the archers and the cavalry basically sat around laughing.

Or at least I did..

arabs are lightly armored, try fighting gothics, rittebruders, chivalric knights, roman/english heavy swordsmen, dismounted hungarian knights, portugese/imperial knights even italian broken lances you'll find obudshaer not so good

**meese** · July 17, 2010, 08:36 PM

Whatever I now say is with RR/RC.

Well, yes, but how often are you going to see an army of ritterbruders only? There's a recruitment pool limit of one and each takes some 7 turns to replenish. So in 8 turns you'll have...2? Not to mention after a certain time they're removed from the recruitment pool altogether. Obudshaer on the other hand are never removed from the pool, take 2 turns to replenish and have a pool size of two. Granted, they take 3 turns to train but that more or less means in 8 turns you'll have 4.

So, you might say "But we're comparing one on ones!" I'll say, "Why? If I've got reserves, I may as well use them. Suppose you have other ritterbruder reserves too, but then won't that mean your front line is weaker elsewhere?" But lets just compare one on ones. Yes, the ritterbruder is better. Heck, they're probably the best infantry around disregarding (maybe, I haven't tested it) the swiss. But of the two, which stands its ground better against cavalry charges? With spear wall and halberds, I'll have to go with the obudshaer. The ritterbruders do have frighten nearby infantry which is also good.

So yes, obudshaer are not so good in one on ones against ritterbruders and even as individuals, I'd say the ritterbruders are better. Now, I'm not going to really talk about costs since that's only really a factor if you play with BGRIV which you may or may not. But what you'll find is that in the short run ritterbruder are clearly more cheap. But soon, they're upkeep which is some 3x that of the obudshaer will start hurting.

I haven't tested the other units you listed, but here is one result of a obudshaer vs ritterbruder battle. The two others ended the same way. The ritterbruder won, but with only 21 men remaining. This was when both units charged without spear wall. I would've been very happy about this result knowing that I had another unit of obudshaer ready to clean up.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

By the way, ritterbruder are hardly late units. They don't even have great armour, hence why the obudshaer weren't as effective against them. Gothics for example, have 17 armour and 8 defence, giving 25 in total. The obudshaer would cut this down to approximately 16 which is less than the obudshaer's 19. I don't know how it would end; I suspect it'd be close either way. Armoured swordsmen (who are better than chivalric knights) have 11 attack 8 defence and 3 shield giving a total of 22. The obudshaer would cut this to 17 (same as ritterbruder) which is again less than the obudshaer's 19. These guys have even less attack than the ritterbruder so I suspect the obudshaer may have the edge; it'd be close either way. The same will go for chivalric knights and the hungarian version. I highly doubt portuguese knights will fair well with only 12 defence and a fairly slow attack animation. Imperial knights might do well. And broken lances would fare like the other swordsmen.

All in all, "not so good" is hardly correct. They're just as good as all those you listed. They may lose, but barely. It's like saying the gendarmes are "not so good" when compared with lancers. Or even that chivalric knights are not so good because gendarmes and lancers are better.

**smitty** · July 18, 2010, 04:02 AM

Napoleonic this thread is over three months dead, why the resurrection?

**Gogolometro** · July 19, 2010, 05:52 AM

Maybe because is cool to play danes?
OK. Ideea what to use these factions, norse axe and shield after their cool damage in raids on north France and Britannia. First because these guys are good in armor crushing. Second, because I like to use something different than sargent spears and DFK.
Is a fact, starting from 1200, things are very, very nasty for norse, only if you watch the big south empire.
Norse have bad archers, weaker units in general view, and before late armys things are hard if you are under pressure. One thing what effective keep being sticky is, when I fight versus norse, rebels or not, or I use them, vikings, housekarls and all this nice guys with axes, they have a nasty habit killing cavalry in melee. Try to charge let say 2 vikings unit with general or feudal knights. Yes charge obliterate them, but before horsies retreat or even worse start engage in melee, the nasty vikings kill with really good eficiency the mounted armored units. Imagine late, with gothic, armored knights and all nice shiny troops, facing an upgraded axemans of norse, in huge numbers, always available, always ready to fill ranks. The things became very bad for who subestimate them. Add to that the daneish halebards, the norse axemans, swordstaff, and the battlefield not look very cool. Get the charge absorbant(lol) than engage in melee the axes of north.

**Maltacus** · July 19, 2010, 08:05 AM

Yes charge obliterate them, but before horsies retreat or even worse start engage in melee, the nasty vikings kill with really good eficiency the mounted armored units.

A siege engine or two in front of them do much to keep them safe from the charge. Especially ballistae, with its four pieces per unit.

**Gogolometro** · July 19, 2010, 10:18 AM

Ah, but not need. Spread stakes, cover in woods, put in ambush the axes. Danes look outdated but they are not at all. Only things are outdated is their color. If I can change that to red and white I will be very happy.

**Point Blank** · July 19, 2010, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gogolometro

Maybe because is cool to play danes?
OK. Ideea what to use these factions, norse axe and shield after their cool damage in raids on north France and Britannia. First because these guys are good in armor crushing. Second, because I like to use something different than sargent spears and DFK.
Is a fact, starting from 1200, things are very, very nasty for norse, only if you watch the big south empire.
Norse have bad archers, weaker units in general view, and before late armys things are hard if you are under pressure. One thing what effective keep being sticky is, when I fight versus norse, rebels or not, or I use them, vikings, housekarls and all this nice guys with axes, they have a nasty habit killing cavalry in melee. Try to charge let say 2 vikings unit with general or feudal knights. Yes charge obliterate them, but before horsies retreat or even worse start engage in melee, the nasty vikings kill with really good eficiency the mounted armored units. Imagine late, with gothic, armored knights and all nice shiny troops, facing an upgraded axemans of norse, in huge numbers, always available, always ready to fill ranks. The things became very bad for who subestimate them. Add to that the daneish halebards, the norse axemans, swordstaff, and the battlefield not look very cool. Get the charge absorbant(lol) than engage in melee the axes of north.

Right

The Nordics have some very dangerous units, and with some armor upgrades and good tactics they can be dangerous in all eras.

**Rogal Dorn** · July 19, 2010, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by smitty

Sir Walter, a great way of assessing what units are available to your faction is by entering the custom battle menu, setting the time period to 'all' and then browsing the available units in the next menu.

You'll see that not only can you recruit Obudshaer (which are a rather limited recruitment unit, available only in citadels) but more importantly you can also eventually recruit Sword Staff Militia. Not only do these guys look awesome, but they are recruitable from cities and replenish in much higher numbers than Obudshaer. They have 4 attack and 12 defense, but also can form spear wall and have the armor piercing attribute, making these guys one of the deadliest militia units in the entire game. And, not only will you have access to the same feudal/chivalric knights, mounted men at arms, and ranged cavalry that many of the more continental European powers do, but you'll also have access to Norse War Clerics, a deadly mace-wielding cavalry unit with a weak charge but high attack and armor piercing attribute, making them excellent General's Bodyguard/Heavy Cavalry slayers on the battlefield. These bad boys also come in dismounted form

Despair not at the roster of Denmark, for greatness is within their ranks!

Yeah, Norsemen rip through armor like tinfoil. That's why I chuckled when the OP said "...axes..." like they didn't do anything.

**Maltacus** · July 19, 2010, 07:33 PM

Not to mention the shield wall. Ridiculously effective.

Ah, but not need. Spread stakes, cover in woods, put in ambush the axes.

Well, a need in open plains where there is no place to hide. You need to cross plains as the Norse conquer Europe and Middle East. Siege are also better than stakes if you want to move in the battle.

Only things are outdated is their color. If I can change that to red and white I will be very happy.

I agree. The crusader states have some white and read late textures you could borrow. If you have the space, install SS 6.1 in some folder and borrow the old Polish textures. No risk for confusion since Poland has changed to the Rusichi suits.

**Point Blank** · July 20, 2010, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by Rogal Dorn

Yeah, Norsemen rip through armor like tinfoil. That's why I chuckled when the OP said "...axes..." like they didn't do anything.

Huscarl 2H Axemen

**Maltacus** · July 20, 2010, 07:33 AM

Huscarl

It is actually Huskarl since they are Scandinavian units.

Is Huscarl the English version of the word? If not, I don't know what the vanilla spelling derives from.

**meese** · July 20, 2010, 08:25 AM

According to wiki it's the Old English form

**RollingWave** · July 27, 2010, 02:56 AM

On a general level, if you mean you have a pretty large empire but faces another large empire with a stronger roster....

the best idea is to implement some obvious Sun Tzu logic, avoid the tough spots and focus on the weak. sail everywhere and land armies with siege equipments. sack thinly defended settlements (which even with outdated troops shouldn't be much trouble as long as you have something to take down walls). that way, you get a lot of money, while they lose a lot of money to these hit and runs.

repeat the process until they really began to weaken, then take some gamble and take those cities and try to hold it, make them waste armies trying to take defended walls, even if you lose out, you probably should cost them more than they costed you.

It's just a matter of making sure they end up losing more than you in every encounter, if you take a thinly defended large city with upgraded towers, even if they bring in much stronger troops they'll have a hard time to take you down. rince and repeat until they crumble.

Denmark shouldn't be much of a problem. as they have a very good navy roster and a above average artillery roster and enough late range and pike troops to make siege hell for anyone else. though really, with this sort of tactic as long as your not running just peasants out there , how outclassed can you be? even Byazantium should be able to win if you have enough money.

Large scale total war between two large state is simply a matter of money, better troops just mean they have a relatively more efficent way of spending those money, but if you can apply your money better than him or simply have a lot more money to work with, you'll still win.

This sort of strategy is only problematic if you use say... the Cumans or Mongols . who have a very limited infantry roster. using those sort of faction basically just mean should focus on fighting as much as possible on (preferably open ) fields, with all cavalry armies, and exploit your horse archers to the max.