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Thread: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* BETA now available!

  1. #1

    Default Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* BETA now available!


    Army Of Napoleon

    A legit mod that wants your feedback.


    IMPORTANT NOTICE:
    This thread is now obsolete, to see how the new mod is going,
    Click Here



    Goals:
    1. Create a more historically accurate french army
    2. Modify the Campaign to appropriately facilitate this new army.
    3. Create a foreign-unit-system that will increase the french roster by orders of magnitude, and give each regional regiment a unique feel.
    4. Balance the french army to favor historically accurate tactics while not changing the vanilla game mechanics.

    Confirmed Changes:
    Note: All current french units will be replaced by new ones, no units will carry over as they are currently.

    All following units will be entirely retextured/rebalanced/"re-iconed" etc.

    All French Units will be named in French. Don't be off-put by my anglicized names below, they are not the finals. In fact, the entire unit roster has already been renamed.

    French Artillery Overhaul:

    • 3-lber Horse Artillery and 8-lb Foot artillery will be the two pieces of available artillery early on to represent the older Gribeaval System used by the Monarchy/Republic. These units will worse reload abilities, republican-era uniforms, and less accuracy then their Year XI counterparts.
    • 6-lber Horse/Foot Artillery and 12-lb foot artillery will be later additions to represent the year XI system of artillery introduced by Napoleon. Both units will have their stats increased to represent their place as a later type of artillery. They will also sport uniforms in the "new-army" style.
    • 5.6 in howitzers will also appear later in game.
    • 24 lb Siege guns will be available, though they will not be suitable for most field engagements.
    • Grand Batteries will be removed as they are a historical cluster-**.
    • The artillery a pied and artillery a cheval will be phased out as they are replaced by the year XI artillery pieces. However the reserve batteries of the imperial guard will be recruitable to satisfy any "eliter" artillery needs.
    • Ill even throw in Rockets/Experimental Howitzers, though they'll be renamed and possible retextured.

    French Cavalry Overhaul:

    • French cavalry will be broken down into 3 categories for the regular army: light, line, and heavies. These 3 categories will each be mimicked by an Imperial Guard Roster containing similar units.
    • Regular army light cavalry will include: Light Lancers, Horse Chasseurs, Hussards. The Hussards may be similar to the Chasseurs in stats though may sacrifice defense for a greater charge bonus. I have noticed many accounts of hussars in the french army carrying carbines, I would like feedback on this.
    • The regular army line cavalry will be dragoons. Dragoons will be changed to reflect their historical place as a lighter variant of heavy cavalry. This means they will retain their armor rating, but will receive lighter horses/will weigh less.
    • Regular army heavy cavalry will include Cuirassiers and Horse Carabiniers as well as the Gendarmerie d'elite. Carabiniers will have their stats lowered to account for the new unit of Gendarmerie d'elite which may take their place stat-wise. Carabiniers will be similar to Cuirassiers, only they will be able to dismount like dragoons.
    • Guard Light Cavalry: Polish Lancers, Red Lancers, Imperial Chasseurs, Imperial Mamelukes. The lancer regiments were conceived before the recent patch released them (though I may borrow parts of their skins), and will not be the invincible achieve all cavalry they are currently. They will however still be effective.
    • Guard line cavalry will be the Empress Dragoons, a single unit that will be a mix of heavy cavalry stats and faster medium sized horses.
    • Guard heavy cavalry will be the Horse Grenadiers, their stats will be greatly increased as will their price. These horsemen were the feared elites of Europe and so will be modeled as such. They will be similar to the vanilla "old guard" on horseback.

    French Infantry Overhaul:

    • All Regular army infantry will suffer a decrease in ammunition. Napoleon frequently had to contend with low-supplies, you should too.
    • Grenadier units will be increased to 145 men on Ultra Settings, this will hopefully make them a viable option for any French army.
    • Regular Army Infantry will be separated into the light-regiments, and the line-regiments.
    • Line regiments will include Fusiliers, Line Voltigeurs, and Grenadiers. The Line regiments are entirely separate from the lights, so therefore have their own skirmisher and Grenadier sections. Line infantry will have their moral/melee stats improved and their accuracy/reload times decreased. This will make them a more effective melee weapon and will make it harder to win a battle by exchanging volleys. Line Voltigeurs will be a lower-quality variant of skirmisher, and Grenadiers will be a semi-elite version of Fusiliers with primary stat increases in morale and melee skill.
    • Light regiments will consist of Chasseurs, Light Voltigeurs, and Foot Carabiniers. These units will be similar to their line counterparts except they will be slightly higher quality and will favor marksmanship/reload over brute melee power. The exception to this being the Foot Carabiniers who will be similar to line Grenadiers.
    • All French infantry will be given light infantry tactics, I may work with their firing drills to calibrate them to an appropriate fire rate (this means can_skirmish may be on or off).
    • The Imperial Guard will also feature prominently and will be divided into the Old, Middle, and Young Guards.
    • The Old guard units will each be single units: the 1st Foot Grenadiers (the famous ones) and the 1st Foot Chasseurs (famous as well). They will be superior to vanilla Old Guard to account for their single-unit-status. However this improvement will be a great increase in morale/attack and not necessarily one in accuracy/reload, which is IMO already quite unrealistic.
    • The Middle Guard will consist of the single unit 3rd Foot Grenadiers, multiple units of Middle Guard Grenadiers, Middle Guard Fusiliers and Middle Guard Chasseurs. These grenadier regiments will take the strategic place of the Vanilla Old Guard. The Middle Guard Fusiliers will be similar to other factions "Elite units" In accuracy and reload, but will be only slightly above average in melee. Essentially, the Middle Guard will function like the line/light sections of the regular army.
    • The Young Guard will consist of Tiralleurs, who will be a mix between Middle Guard Grenadiers and Fusiliers (with sizable stat decreases), and will also contain Voltigeurs. These units will be less elite, and more simply better than the regular army. They will be analogous to Hungarian Fusiliers in the Austrian army.

    Possible Additional Changes:
    Artillery:

    • Remove bonuses of french artillery that make no sense (morale bonus?)
    • Edit projectile tables to add 3-lb, 24-lb, mountain artillery projectiles. Otherwise the statistics would be reused from other available calibers. This will most likely be included, I am simply worried about a projectiles overhaul affecting mod compatibility.

    Cavalry:

    • Imperial Scouts may be added as a light-light cavalry unit.
    • Cavalry recruitment buildings will be changed so that dragoons will become available earlier, as well as most other non-guard units.
    • Horse Grenadiers may receive a harsher unit cap to encourage use of Cuirassiers, who would receive a subsequent stat boost.
    • Remove all guns/dismounting from cavalry, thoughts?

    Infantry:

    • Delete Grenades for french units.
    • Still testing the aforementioned 145 unit grenadier regiments, possibly to 160. Thoughts?
    • Adding "scares enemies" to all grenadier regiments
    • More "regiments of note" may be added such as the 18th or the Un Contre Dix. Will have to see how the variety of the french roster feels.
    • Militia Units similar to National Guard or Revolutionary Infantry
    • Appropriate Bearskins for The Imperial Guard.

    Miscellaneous:

    • Engineer units that would be able to lay stakes, man artillery, etc...
    • Sappers, yes the big guys with axes.
    • Startpos editting to fix the vanilla unit sizes/unit types
    • Depict units in their battle dress rather than parade dress. Greatcoats, Shako-covers. etc.


    Progress:
    1. Almost all units have been created/balanced. Currently working on retextures/ finding good icon pictures, as well as research for the foreign units.

    2. Icon pictures finished for artillery/cavalry/50% of generals. Info pictures finished for cavalry, 50% for artillery. Stats/numbers rebalanced

    What I need:
    Historical Feedback
    Help?
    Any Feedback...
    Thread bumps? Couldn't hurt...
    The Team:
    richarsharpe -this that and the other
    kingtigertank - Scripting, editing, research
    [your name here]

    PM me if your interested in helping out, I need people that are willing to find historical data and paintings and the like as well as texturers. Anyone would be a great help, no skill set required.
    Pictures?
    Coming real soon.

    Well that may be all, I'm away from my rig so I don't have all my "notes" in front of me.

    RS

    Last edited by richardsharpe; August 21, 2010 at 02:43 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Audaciously Self Proclaimed French Military Overhaul

    Foreign Regiments System:

    • 10s of new "Foreign Units" will be introduced to be recruitable in the territories conquered by Napoleon. They will take the place of normal French Units and will all be territory or region specific. For instance, Italian Guard Grenadiers would replace normal line Grenadiers in many Italian cities. The Grand Armee was comprised of a great mix of uniforms/cultures/units and I hope that the new Foreign Regiment System will model that.
    • As well as replacing the standard roster units, individual foreign units such as the Jagers of Wurttemberg will be available.
    • The units in different regions will have slightly altered stats to represents regional strengths/weaknesses.
    • The Imperial Guard will most likely only be recruitable in France, and these foreign regiments will all have unit caps, though they may not be severe.

    Partial List:

    • Iberian Peninsula: 1. Regiments Joseph-Napoleon 2. Pionniers Espagnols 3. Infanterie de la Legion Portugaise 4. Infanterie d'elite de la Legion Portugaise 5. Chasseurs a Cheval de la Legion Portugaise
    • Polish/Vistula Legion: 1. Infanterie de la Legion du Nord 2. Infanterie de la Legion Vistule 3. Infanterie de Legion Polacco Italienne 4. Lanceirs de la Vistule 5. Artillerie a Pied de la Vistule
    • Croates: 1. Chasseurs Illyriens 2. Infanterie Proviosires Croates 3. Hussards Croates
    • Corsica: 1. Tirailleurs Corses
    • Italians: 1. Grenadier Garde d"Italie, 2. Tirailleurs du Po
    • Swiss: 1. Infanterie Suisse, 2. Grenadier Garde Suisse
    • Piedmonte: 1. Legion du Midi
    • Paris: 1. Legion Irlandaise, 2. Mameloukes de la Garde, 3. Regiments Estrangers
    • Confederation of the Rhine: 1. Legion Hannovrienne, 2. Infanterie de Westphalie, 3. Jagers de Wurtemburg

    More to come...
    Last edited by richardsharpe; April 10, 2010 at 01:25 PM.

  3. #3
    Prince of Essling's Avatar Napoleonic Enthusiast
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    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    I like your proposal very much - hopefully others will feel encouraged to do likewise with the other protaganists so that we end up with a more historical feel.

    Turning to your various proposals, my comments are offered in a constructive fashion - many apologies if any come across in an overly impassioned fashion as no offence is meant.

    Artillery
    Agree with differentiation between Gribeaval & Year XI. Year XI equipment was lighter, better constructed & more powerful. For year XI you should also include 6pdr foot batteries as they were the main stay of the French artillery regiments.

    Cavalry
    As you say Hussars were equipped with carbines as were almost all French cavalry. Hussars were employed in a similar role to Chasseurs a Cheval.

    The French did use cavalry in skirmisher roles - detaching pelotons known as flanqueurs. Skirmishers appear to have operated in staggered pairs - with the line formed 60 paces from the main body. Heavy cavalry also operated in skirmisher fashion - according to Mercer's account of Waterloo.

    Carabiniers should have the same factors as Cuirassiers as they were used as shock troops. [Some saw them as an elite form of Cuirassier]. They should not be treated as an elite form of Dragoons and allowed to dismount.

    Lancers should have an initial high impact value against other cavalry, but once in melee their main weapon the lance became a hinderance, with lancers discarding them for their sabres.

    Infantry
    On quality of troops e.g. line & light, from my readings I do not detect any difference. In the Napoleonic wars both types were used in the same way, so in effect interchangeable, only difference was the uniform.

    Old Guard - can you uplift the number of regiments to 2 Grenadiers and 2 Chasseurs as that was the usual number, though I accept the numbers were reduced to 1 of each for a few years due to cost.

    Middle Guard - initially 2 battalions each of Fusilier-Grenadiers and Fusilier-Chasseurs, ending up with 4 battalions of each.

    Young Guard - your Chasseurs should be renamed Voltigeurs as the Young Guard eventually ended up with 19 regiments each of Tirailleurs and Voltigeurs, though I acknowledge that the Voltigeurs formed part of the Chasseur branch of the Guard.

    Possible additional
    Imperial-Scouts - 3 regiments of Eclaireurs formed part of the Guard and were attached to the Grenadiers a Cheval, the Guard Dragoons and the Polish Lancers. Agree they should be a lighter form of light cavalry but not convinced they were used to scout ahead....

    Grenadier a Cheval should be capped to same limit as Chasseurs a Cheval etc of the Guard.

    Agree French army should be able to recruit Dragoons from the start - they formed a large part of the French Cavalry.

    If you are going to add specific Units, suggest you add the Terrible 57th of the line.
    Last edited by Prince of Essling; April 08, 2010 at 06:27 AM. Reason: spelling

  4. #4
    Foederatus
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    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    I am happy to throw my $0.02 in this fascinating project.

    Quote Originally Posted by richardsharpe View Post


    Goals:
    1. Create a more historically accurate french army
    2. Modify the Campaign to appropriately facilitate this new army.
    3. Create a foreign-unit-system that will increase the french roster by orders of magnitude, and give each regional regiment a unique feel.
    4. Balance the french army to favor historically accurate tactics while not changing the vanilla game mechanics.

    French Artillery Overhaul:


    Regarding French artillery, I'd say that during the revolutionary period, it was the finest arm available and had both high ability and morale. Especially the new horse artillery units considered themselves absolute elites and looked down on all other arms, outswaggering even the hussars.
    I would also reconsider using mountain artillery and siege artillery. Neither played a big role in battles in the era. Especially siege artillery as it was practically useless on the battlefield and was too slow to march along with field armies. They belonged to siege trains wich followed the field armies as seperate entities and were used exclusively to batter fortifications. When faced with enemy forces, the siege train was lost. It did not fight a battle.

    French Cavalry Overhaul:
    I would second the idea that the hussars deserve a bonus of some kind. They were indeed considered a notch above the chasseur regiments. Their equipment was similar to chasseurs and included the carbine which was used for skirmishing and outpost duty.

    I don't see why you would add a seperate category of line lancers. No such thing existed historically. The chevaux legere lanciers were created from chasseurs and dragoons but received the same training, role and eventually the same (replacement) horses.

    You might want to give the "Polish"lancer units a bigger bonus than the "French"lancer units. Despite popular imagination, lances were not easy to master. The polish units (Guard, Vistula and Polish-trained Dutch "red"lancers) were adapt with them while the French units were less so.....

    I would stay away from the dismounted cavalry concept. Beyond outpost duty, cavalry remained mounted in combat. Even the dragoons. While they were issued the dragoon musket (e.g. a larger carbine or a smaller musket) that did not really change their role as medium cavalry, capable of both light cavalry roles and heavy cavalry roles. Hence their popularity; they were versatile and relatively cheap. And were hardly ever used on foot. The famous foot dragoon divisions were a failure and the troops were mounted as soon as horses became available.

    I would not add Gendarmerie. There were "police" troops, deployed in small units and were not seen on any battlefields. Their job was anti-smuggling, anti-banditry and counter-insurgency. Considering the scale of NTW, they don't fit. If you're thinking of the Gendarmes dÉlite of the Imperial Guard, these were MP's and special purpose troops, normally assigned to guarding the emperor's baggage and headquarters. Not combat troops and thus seldom seen on battlefields (although it did happen, they were too small in number to be relevant in NTW).

    Why demote the Carabiniers? They were the elite of the regular cavalry (and never let anyone forget their special status). While their original status was indeed as light skirmish cavalry attached to the line cavalry, that was far in the past. They were heavy cavalry and nothing else. Giving them the dismount ability would be plain silly, akin to giving grenades to the Grenadiers a cheval because they are named grenadiers...

    I'd also question any functional differentation between the grenadiers a cheval and the dragons de l'imperatrice (or horse grenadiers and empress dragoons ). Both were brigaded together, used as shock cavalry and given the same type of horses (with blacks going to the grenadiers and bays to the dragoons).

    Lastly, there are very few accounts of cavalry units using their firearms in battles. Most end badly but all have in common that they are noted for being so rare. I would therefore recommend eliminating the firing ability of chasseurs etc. I realize this will make the chasseurs less unique so its a choice of gameplay vs. historical accuracy, I suppose.


    French Infantry Overhaul:
    As much as I like your idea of simulating low supplies, lack of ammunition is not the way to do it. It will impact actual game play and force even more melee combat (which was extremely rare unlike blazing musketry duels). And I'd be hard pressed to find accounts of armies lacking sufficient bullets or cannonballs during battles. The fact is that armies carried enough to see them through a battle or two. Only multiple day battles or during sieges would this become an issue if the supply was cut. Otherwise, magazines established in central depots provided enough ammo. Usually administrated by the artillery branches, they proved far more effective than quartermaster services.

    I also fail to see the reason for different sizes of infantry units. There was no numerical difference in a light battalion and a line battalion. And converged grenadier or foot dragoon units were also usually similarly sized to line battalions. The Imperial guard battalions would be even bigger than line battalions!

    If grenadiers are supposed to be better than line troops, why give them less men so their better qualities are undermined by their inferior numbers?

    I am also not sure what you intend with your "line regiments". How do you intend to include voltigeurs and grenadiers in a fusilier/line unit? And why would you want to increase melee? This is the culmination of the musket & horse period, not the pike & shot. (Actual) Infantry melee is rare, fire fights should be the norm.

    When modelling skirmishing ability in line and light units you consider game play and balance but not when modelling other units/categories? That seems strange and inconsistent to me.

    Why don't you add conscript line infantry? Troops which are comparable to the Militia or National Guard but can form square. That would make the original fusiliers of the line comparable to the well trained troops of 1804 trained in the Army of England.

    When modeling the Imperial Guard, you have to realize there were 3 distinct guard phases. The 1802-1809, the 1810-1814 and the 1815. In the first, the guard started small and was steadily if erratically increased and decreased in several economy drives. In the second phase, it was steadily enlarged, both by adding Dutch guard regiments and by more and more Young Guard regiments, eventually leading to the rationalization of the Voltigeur and Tirailleur regiments. And then in 1815, it was rationalized with 1-4 regiments of grenadiers and chasseurs and 2 divisions worth of Young Guards.

    Some of these regiments you want to model were actually the same unit under a different name, like the fusiliers and middle guard grenadiers. I also think you are underestimating the fusiliers. They were also elite troops, with only slightly less demanding entry qualifications than the Old Guard. And they did most of the fighting up to 1812, so you could say that the reputation of the old guard was actually earned by the middle guard. So I'd place them rather more ahead of normal elites. If you really want, I can give you a proper breakdown of the guard and its various units but its boring stuff .

    [/QUOTE]

    Foreign Regiments System:

    • 10s of new "Foreign Units" will be introduced to be recruitable in the territories conquered by Napoleon. They will take the place of normal French Units and will all be territory or region specific. For instance, Italian Guard Grenadiers would replace normal line Grenadiers in many Italian cities. The Grand Armee was comprised of a great mix of uniforms/cultures/units and I hope that the new Foreign Regiment System will model that.
    • As well as replacing the standard roster units, individual foreign units such as the Jagers of Wurttemberg will be available.
    • List Coming...
    • The units in different regions will have slightly altered stats to represents regional strengths/weaknesses.
    • The Imperial Guard will most likely only be recruitable in France, and these foreign regiments will all have unit caps, though they may not be severe.
    This seems like a nice idea.

    Possible Additional Changes:
    Artillery:

    • Remove bonuses of french artillery that make no sense (morale bonus?)
    Well, the French artillery was considered the best in Europe at the time. Either they are modelled to shoot better or they have better morale I suppose.


    Anyway,

    great idea and good luck.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    Hey richardsharpe,
    If you want more info on the artillery systems you are implementing, take a look at the mod in my sig, fourth page. Its got a roster there and some historical sources commenting on the guns
    Regards,
    T.C.
    My Tools, Tutorials and Resources

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  6. #6
    Fencible's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    Richardsharpe,

    I applaud your concept. I also support the observations of both Prince of Essling and Ranoncles, which are in accord from all that I have read of the french army during this period.

    I have one further observation concerning French Dragoons of the Line: they were considered to be 'medium' cavalry, and supplied with medium sized horses, larger and slower than the light horse, but smaller and more agile than the heavies. I have also read that by the late Napoleonic period, all cavalry of the Imperial Garde were considered to be heavy in role (including Napoleons personal regiment, Les Chasseurs de la Garde), except for the lancers.

    Also, from my reading - there was no functional difference between the uses or performance of Chasseurs a Cheval and Hussars in the field, aside from uniforms. The hussars promoted themselves as wild party-animals who were extra brave and dashing in combat, but they weren't any better than the less flashy types of light cavalry, from what I've read.

    Finally - will someone on your team be doing something about fixing the bear-skins of the Old Guard? Currently they look as though they are modeled on shakos, and are indistinguishable from such at a distance - they are the same shape and have peaks on the front. They should taper towards the top, lean forward, sit lower on the head, and NOT have cap peaks. Also the men should be MUCH hairier (ALL the French Infantry and cavalry in general, but especially les Grognards)! Moustaches, pigtails, and sideburns were not only fashionable, but specified as a required part of the uniform!
    Furthermore, the Old Guard did not wear their parade uniforms in battle. They usually wore dark blue over-all pants which hung down to their feet, and during fall/winter they wore great coats which came down to their ankles. The plumes and other decorations on their bearskins were only worn during parades.

    Fencible

  7. #7

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    I like your proposal very much - hopefully others will feel encouraged to do likewise with the other protaganists so that we end up with a more historical feel. Turning to your various proposals, my comments are offered in a constructive fashion - many apologies if any come across in an overly impassioned fashion as no offence is meant.
    thanks! , and of course. All in good spirit

    Artillery
    Agree with differentiation between Gribeaval & Year XI. Year XI equipment was lighter, better constructed & more powerful. For year XI you should also include 6pdr foot batteries as they were the main stay of the French artillery regiments.
    I think I agree with you here and so will add them. I think I was simply aprehensive because I personally hate foot-6s, but you're right. =p

    Cavalry
    As you say Hussars were equipped with carbines as were almost all French cavalry. Hussars were employed in a similar role to Chasseurs a Cheval.

    The French did use cavalry in skirmisher roles - detaching pelotons known as flanqueurs. Skirmishers appear to have operated in staggered pairs - with the line formed 60 paces from the main body. Heavy cavalry also operated in skirmisher fashion - according to Mercer's account of Waterloo.

    Carabiniers should have the same factors as Cuirassiers as they were used as shock troops. [Some saw them as an elite form of Cuirassier]. They should not be treated as an elite form of Dragoons and allowed to dismount.

    Lancers should have an initial high impact value against other cavalry, but once in melee their main weapon the lance became a hinderance, with lancers discarding them for their sabres.
    1. How would you suggest I implement the skirmish role of cavalry? Or were you suggesting more to simply keep that role in mind while altering stats?
    2. I agree it does seem irregular. The only inconsistency I noticed that the Carabiniers A Cheval were armed with a firearm (at least in half the histories I read). Just for show? If so, I imagine they could be removed.

    Infantry
    On quality of troops e.g. line & light, from my readings I do not detect any difference. In the Napoleonic wars both types were used in the same way, so in effect interchangeable, only difference was the uniform.

    Old Guard - can you uplift the number of regiments to 2 Grenadiers and 2 Chasseurs as that was the usual number, though I accept the numbers were reduced to 1 of each for a few years due to cost.

    Middle Guard - initially 2 battalions each of Fusilier-Grenadiers and Fusilier-Chasseurs, ending up with 4 battalions of each.

    Young Guard - your Chasseurs should be renamed Voltigeurs as the Young Guard eventually ended up with 19 regiments each of Tirailleurs and Voltigeurs, though I acknowledge that the Voltigeurs formed part of the Chasseur branch of the Guard.
    1. On the difference between light and line, I have also read that there was little difference (other than the darker uniforms, "plumage", etc) between the two. I have also read though that the lights were slightly better trained and had higher morale as a result of a slightly higher espirit du corps. I thought that because the historical grounding for this may be contested I would add slight differences for a more diverse roster.
    2. I think I may keep it 1 of each simply because I'd like to add the unique unit feel of the 1er Grenadiers and 1er Chasseurs.
    3. Thanks, I was looking for a good unit cap. I thought I read about a distinction between Fusiliers and Grenadiers in the Moyenne Garde, the Grenadiers being simply reserves for the Vieille Garde.
    4. Yeah I realized that about the Voltigeurs last night, will change. Just to confirm, these men would have been armed in the way of a Voltigeur regiment or as a standard light infantry regiment?

    Possible additional
    Imperial-Scouts - 3 regiments of Eclaireurs formed part of the Guard and were attached to the Grenadiers a Cheval, the Guard Dragoons and the Polish Lancers. Agree they should be a lighter form of light cavalry but not convinced they were used to scout ahead....

    Grenadier a Cheval should be capped to same limit as Chasseurs a Cheval etc of the Guard.

    Agree French army should be able to recruit Dragoons from the start - they formed a large part of the French Cavalry.

    If you are going to add specific Units, suggest you add the Terrible 57th of the line.
    57e - will do.
    Grenadiers a Cheval - will also do.
    Imperial scouts - sounds good, but do you think they should be included? I'm not sure if I could carve them a unique enough position to be useful/distinct

  8. #8

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    I am happy to throw my $0.02 in this fascinating project.
    Glad to receive that .02, and any more change you may have lying around. =)



    Regarding French artillery, I'd say that during the revolutionary period, it was the finest arm available and had both high ability and morale. Especially the new horse artillery units considered themselves absolute elites and looked down on all other arms, outswaggering even the hussars.
    I would also reconsider using mountain artillery and siege artillery. Neither played a big role in battles in the era. Especially siege artillery as it was practically useless on the battlefield and was too slow to march along with field armies. They belonged to siege trains wich followed the field armies as seperate entities and were used exclusively to batter fortifications. When faced with enemy forces, the siege train was lost. It did not fight a battle.
    As far as mountain artillery, I had simply read that it was a part of the roster, and was not sure about usage. I think I may take that out, as I can't see it adding all that much, while it does complicate the projectile system a bit.

    As far as siege I think I've decided to leave it in. It seems silly to me that 12 lbers are being used to take down forts walls. I agree it should not be usable for field battles, I will model this by slow reload rates and possibly 2/1 gun batteries.


    I would second the idea that the hussars deserve a bonus of some kind. They were indeed considered a notch above the chasseur regiments. Their equipment was similar to chasseurs and included the carbine which was used for skirmishing and outpost duty.
    Would anyone else like to weigh in? I know the Hussars liked to talk a bunch of mess about their superiority, do you have a source I could read up on?

    I don't see why you would add a seperate category of line lancers. No such thing existed historically. The chevaux legere lanciers were created from chasseurs and dragoons but received the same training, role and eventually the same (replacement) horses.
    From what I could tell, there were lancer regiments both in the line cavalry and in the light cavalry. As you said, they were recruited from Dragoons and Chasseurs, who would I imagine have been receiving seperate trainining?

    You might want to give the "Polish"lancer units a bigger bonus than the "French"lancer units. Despite popular imagination, lances were not easy to master. The polish units (Guard, Vistula and Polish-trained Dutch "red"lancers) were adapt with them while the French units were less so.....
    Oh, it may have been unclear. I agree.

    I would stay away from the dismounted cavalry concept. Beyond outpost duty, cavalry remained mounted in combat. Even the dragoons. While they were issued the dragoon musket (e.g. a larger carbine or a smaller musket) that did not really change their role as medium cavalry, capable of both light cavalry roles and heavy cavalry roles. Hence their popularity; they were versatile and relatively cheap. And were hardly ever used on foot. The famous foot dragoon divisions were a failure and the troops were mounted as soon as horses became available.
    Addressed in my last response, I think I may agree there. So remove dismounting for everyone?

    I would not add Gendarmerie. There were "police" troops, deployed in small units and were not seen on any battlefields. Their job was anti-smuggling, anti-banditry and counter-insurgency. Considering the scale of NTW, they don't fit. If you're thinking of the Gendarmes dÉlite of the Imperial Guard, these were MP's and special purpose troops, normally assigned to guarding the emperor's baggage and headquarters. Not combat troops and thus seldom seen on battlefields (although it did happen, they were too small in number to be relevant in NTW).
    Yes sorry, I meant the Gendarmerie D'Elite (can't model that damn accent yet-why all my original post butchered names with the English translations). I know they weren't active combat troops, but as you said, they did see some engagements. They would be a singly recruitable unit.

    Why demote the Carabiniers? They were the elite of the regular cavalry (and never let anyone forget their special status). While their original status was indeed as light skirmish cavalry attached to the line cavalry, that was far in the past. They were heavy cavalry and nothing else. Giving them the dismount ability would be plain silly, akin to giving grenades to the Grenadiers a cheval because they are named grenadiers...
    I simply want to make them distinct from the Grenadiers a Cheval, who would historically have been much more powerful. I agree they should still be more powerful than regular Cuirassiers.

    I'd also question any functional differentation between the grenadiers a cheval and the dragons de l'imperatrice (or horse grenadiers and empress dragoons ). Both were brigaded together, used as shock cavalry and given the same type of horses (with blacks going to the grenadiers and bays to the dragoons).
    Different uniforms. Dragons de l"imperatrice were recruited from sergeants/officers in the Chasseur/dragoon regiments, grenadiers were formed from the heavy cavalry I believe. From what I can tell, they were different units.

    Lastly, there are very few accounts of cavalry units using their firearms in battles. Most end badly but all have in common that they are noted for being so rare. I would therefore recommend eliminating the firing ability of chasseurs etc. I realize this will make the chasseurs less unique so its a choice of gameplay vs. historical accuracy, I suppose.
    The more I read this, the more I like the idea.


    As much as I like your idea of simulating low supplies, lack of ammunition is not the way to do it. It will impact actual game play and force even more melee combat (which was extremely rare unlike blazing musketry duels). And I'd be hard pressed to find accounts of armies lacking sufficient bullets or cannonballs during battles. The fact is that armies carried enough to see them through a battle or two. Only multiple day battles or during sieges would this become an issue if the supply was cut. Otherwise, magazines established in central depots provided enough ammo. Usually administrated by the artillery branches, they proved far more effective than quartermaster services.
    Because ammunition cannot be modeled on the campaign map, I decided that making France a little more "frugal" would better model their supply problems. While Bayonet combat in Napoleon may be broken, the French still did rely heavily on the column/bayonet charge's morale impact frequently due to the scarcity of ammunition. If the bayonet system is broken, that is beyond the scope of this mod, I simply wanted to model that tendency to close quarters. Note that I am not decreasing their ammunition horribly, just enough that a player may want to order a bayonet charge if combat draws on too long.

    I also fail to see the reason for different sizes of infantry units. There was no numerical difference in a light battalion and a line battalion. And converged grenadier or foot dragoon units were also usually similarly sized to line battalions. The Imperial guard battalions would be even bigger than line battalions!
    I think you may have misread, I am bringing the light infantry units to 160. The grenadiers I kept at 145 (still an increase), but I am totally open to bringing them up to 160 (and very well may do just that right now).


    I am also not sure what you intend with your "line regiments". How do you intend to include voltigeurs and grenadiers in a fusilier/line unit? And why would you want to increase melee? This is the culmination of the musket & horse period, not the pike & shot. (Actual) Infantry melee is rare, fire fights should be the norm.
    Couple points:
    1. I intend to include them in the Line infantry because historically these two units were part of the line infantry.
    2. Napoleon frequently used bayonet charges to break an enemy army. Cavalry were also widely used by the French army. While they did have muskets, they also had bayonets attached to them...


    When modelling skirmishing ability in line and light units you consider game play and balance but not when modelling other units/categories? That seems strange and inconsistent to me.
    Well, you have to draw the line somewhere.

    Why don't you add conscript line infantry? Troops which are comparable to the Militia or National Guard but can form square. That would make the original fusiliers of the line comparable to the well trained troops of 1804 trained in the Army of England.
    Oops, forgot. Will get on that. Anyone have a good historical source for such a unit type? I couldn't really find anything...
    PS: I was thinking I could also just make Fusiliers a pseudo-militia unit and then have subsequent "barracks" simply add multiple chevrons to bring them up to snuff. Thoughts?


    Some of these regiments you want to model were actually the same unit under a different name, like the fusiliers and middle guard grenadiers. I also think you are underestimating the fusiliers. They were also elite troops, with only slightly less demanding entry qualifications than the Old Guard. And they did most of the fighting up to 1812, so you could say that the reputation of the old guard was actually earned by the middle guard. So I'd place them rather more ahead of normal elites. If you really want, I can give you a proper breakdown of the guard and its various units but its boring stuff .
    Oh, well I was going to place them ahead of normal elites. As far as the Fusilier, Grenadier, Grenadier-Fusilier distinction, I've read a bunch of different garbage. Anyone have a definitive source? Would be much appreciated.





    This seems like a nice idea.

    Well, the French artillery was considered the best in Europe at the time. Either they are modelled to shoot better or they have better morale I suppose.
    What I meant was the elite artillery unit's ability to inspire nearby troops. I agree the unit themselves should have high morale.


    Anyway,

    great idea and good luck.
    I would say thanks mate, but I'm not actually english. Thanks dude.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by -TopCat- View Post
    Hey richardsharpe,
    If you want more info on the artillery systems you are implementing, take a look at the mod in my sig, fourth page. Its got a roster there and some historical sources commenting on the guns
    Regards,
    T.C.

    thanks man.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencible View Post
    Richardsharpe,

    I applaud your concept. I also support the observations of both Prince of Essling and Ranoncles, which are in accord from all that I have read of the french army during this period.

    I have one further observation concerning French Dragoons of the Line: they were considered to be 'medium' cavalry, and supplied with medium sized horses, larger and slower than the light horse, but smaller and more agile than the heavies. I have also read that by the late Napoleonic period, all cavalry of the Imperial Garde were considered to be heavy in role (including Napoleons personal regiment, Les Chasseurs de la Garde), except for the lancers.

    Also, from my reading - there was no functional difference between the uses or performance of Chasseurs a Cheval and Hussars in the field, aside from uniforms. The hussars promoted themselves as wild party-animals who were extra brave and dashing in combat, but they weren't any better than the less flashy types of light cavalry, from what I've read.

    Finally - will someone on your team be doing something about fixing the bear-skins of the Old Guard? Currently they look as though they are modeled on shakos, and are indistinguishable from such at a distance - they are the same shape and have peaks on the front. They should taper towards the top, lean forward, sit lower on the head, and NOT have cap peaks. Also the men should be MUCH hairier (ALL the French Infantry and cavalry in general, but especially les Grognards)! Moustaches, pigtails, and sideburns were not only fashionable, but specified as a required part of the uniform!
    Furthermore, the Old Guard did not wear their parade uniforms in battle. They usually wore dark blue over-all pants which hung down to their feet, and during fall/winter they wore great coats which came down to their ankles. The plumes and other decorations on their bearskins were only worn during parades.

    Fencible
    Thanks for the response:

    1. Yeah, I agree with the Dragons "medium" status. If you read closely, you'll see I am actually trying to model that.
    2. This Hussar thing has been very ambiguous to me, can someone present some sources? I'm afraid I'm unsure where to place my hat...
    3. My team, heh. Wish that there were. Currently I would like a team.
    4. As far as hat-mods, I'm afraid all that is not quite my specialty. If it is someone else's, I'd love to include them. As far as beards, that really did piss me off about vanilla and I'm pretty sure I can find some hairier guys somewhere. But if not, I'll need that help.

    As far as campaign uniforms vs dress. every single unit from every faction in the game has their dress uniform on. It would seem inconsistent to have a single unit differ. I like to think that if Napoleon himself were playing, he'd like to see his men in their best...
    Last edited by richardsharpe; April 08, 2010 at 08:04 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    okay, so I have updated the first post after reading the comments. Some things are not yet up there as I wish us to have a longer dialogue about them first.

    Thanks everyone.

  12. #12
    Fencible's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    Richard Sharpe,

    Allow me to quote from an excellent 'details' book on the Napoleonic era, 'Weapons & Equipment of the Napoleonic Wars' by Philip Haythornthwaite, Blandford Press 1979. The following excerpt is from the beginning of the chapter entitled 'Cavalry Weapons & Tactics':

    "Despite a bewildering variety of names, all cavalry was divided into three basic categories: heavy, medium and light. The former was specifically designed to execute the charge, a potentially-decisive blow, hence the name: heavy horses and large men to impart maximum impetus. Heavy cavalry included cuirassiers, 'Garde du Corps' (German and Russian), British Household Cavalry, dragoon guards and dragoons; Grenadiers a Cheval, Gendarmerie d'Elite and Carabiniers (French); Prussian dragoons; and during the Revolutionary Wars regiments simply titled 'Horse'."

    "Dragoons were medium cavalry (one weight lighter than the 'heavies'), despite their original function as mounted infantry who rode into action and dismounted to fight. Though France employed dismounted dragoons, their function during the greater part of the Napoleonic Wars was as bona fide cavalry."

    "Mounted on faster horses and lighter-equipped, light cavalry was used for reconnaissance, protection of an army, and pursuit at the end of a battle, though naturally was equally adept at all other forms of mounted warfare. The consequent prestige of the arm was usually reflected in glamorous uniforms, swaggering bravado and hard-drinking, epitomized in hussar corps, light cavalry copied from Hungarian irregulars, whose costume was perpetuated by the universal fur cap and pelisse. The archetype hussar, the French Comte de Lasalle, epitomized the whole light cavalry spirit by declaring: 'A Hussar who isn't dead at thirty is a blackguard' (he survived to 34). Less prestigious was the ordinary light horse: Chasseurs a Cheval (French), Chevau-Legers and German Chevaulegers, Mounted Jagers (German and Russian) and Light Dragoons (British). Those armed with lances, often wearing uniform styled on traditional Polish lines, were named either Lanciers (French) or Uhlans (German). Other terms included Chevau-Leger-Lanciers and Eclaireurs a Cheval (scout-lancers), both French."

    The chapter goes on into great detail about the organization, equipment, and tactics of the different types of cavalry in the different armies, including detailed diagrams of formations, national doctrine, historical examples from battles, etc., and the thoughts of Napoleon, the Duke of Wellington, and others, on their cavalry and how they thought it should behave and be used. Particularly amusing are Wellington's wry and exasperated comments on the failings of British cavalry commanders.

    Fencible
    Last edited by Fencible; April 08, 2010 at 11:46 PM.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    I have (way too much) a few books on the period. And while few give any decent comparisons between the actual performance of chasseurs and hussars, they all tend to agree on the fact that the French hussars were slightly more effective than Chasseurs in a gung ho sort of way.

    Naturally, history is not neat and much depends on the lineage of the actual (hussar) units. A showy uniform in itself doesn't make a great warrior.

    [Pendantic History mode] Hussar units in the French army were originally foreign mercenary units and as such had a much looser discipline. They were also expected to "earn their keep" which meant their livelihood depended on excellent performance. By the time of the French Revolution, they were filled with Frenchmen but the regimental history and traditions remained. Meanwhile, Chasseurs had been raised to augment the few hussar regiments. And while they initially shared the same type of extravagant uniform (albeit in dark green), the hussars retained their higher esprit de corps.

    Same type of horses, same weapons, same equipment, occasionally even the same type of uniform....So why would hussars be better? But then, why would the brave 18th Demi-Brigade de Ligne be better than the 17th or 19th? The fact is that beyond formal training and equipment, there are numerous reasons why one unit simply is better than the next. One obvious one is the quality of the nco's and officer corps. Another (very important one) is the commanding officer and the standards he set for efficiency (a study of WWII shows that the CO of a division can increase combat effectiveness by 200%!!!!). Men also do better when they believe they are part of an elite and look markedly different from the main body. Another case in point were WWII Russian sailors used as infantry. They lacked even the rudimentary training given to the average infantry but were much better (shock) troops simply because they considered themselves better troops and were send from their ships to help out the groundpounders who couldn't get the job done...

    In short, whenever you have a limited number of 'special' troops, even if the specialness is just based on a different badge, headgear or elaborate whiskers, these special troops will develop a higher morale based on their perceived superiority over equal but lesser troops. It wasn't just the hussar uniform however that created superior light cavalry, the hussars had to be a distinct part of a larger light cavalry force. Otherwise, it just became their uniform and not a true mark of distinction....[\Pendantic History mode]

  14. #14

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    looking forward to this mod when the time comes.

    if i had a vote i would go with cavalry such as dragoons still being able to dismount and fight on foot but not being able to fire from horseback. perhaps increase their numbers and lower their mêlée stats, while raising the hussar's mêlée stats. by doing this you're avoiding stale functionality in cavalry while still retaining historical accuracy. it doesn't necessarily mean that every dragoon/carabinier/etc and their mother will be dismounting in every battle all the time, but at least the player has a choice.
    Last edited by snuggans; April 09, 2010 at 08:36 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    There's lots of historic examples of cavalry and dragoons fighting dismounted with muskets from this period. That napoleonistyka site lists over 20. Yes, they aren't going to win a shooting fight with line infantry, or shouldn't be able to, and it almost always it makes more sense tactically for them to charge, but why remove the option if you don't have to?

    The one issue is that there's no apparent way that's been found to mod in a difference between your mounted and dismounted charge value, so heavy cavalry and lancers probably need to remain mounted to avoid their dismounted versions being able to run up and overrun infantry. (You also get the camera shake effect with dismounted cavalry when they move, as if they had horses, which is kind of odd.) But for cavalry with charge values comparable to regular infantry, like dragoons and light dragoons, there's no issue.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencible View Post
    Richard Sharpe,

    Fencible
    Hey, thanks very much for the source. It seemed a good summary of tactics, but did it discount the possibility of lancers in the medium cavalry? I did some reading up myself and it seems the reason that the designation of lancers has remained elusive compared to the other cavalry variants is that lancers were not officially designated in the french cavalry. Instead, they were apparently attached to units of dragoons or Cuirassiers. However, I'm starting to agree that a distinction between light and medium lancers seems tenuous and I think I will remove it.


    On another note, I've thought about it and I think I want to reconsider infantry skirmishing again. Because I am removing what would be normally be considered light infantry (good marksmenship, 120 men etc), I feel that it may not OP the French to allow all their infantry to skirmish. The infantry would not be effective against more powerful light infantry units and so the skirmishing ability I do not believe would be overpowering. Does anyone have anything to add?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by ranoncles View Post
    I have (way too much) a few books on the period. And while few give any decent comparisons between the actual performance of chasseurs and hussars, they all tend to agree on the fact that the French hussars were slightly more effective than Chasseurs in a gung ho sort of way.

    Naturally, history is not neat and much depends on the lineage of the actual (hussar) units. A showy uniform in itself doesn't make a great warrior.

    [Pendantic History mode] Hussar units in the French army were originally foreign mercenary units and as such had a much looser discipline. They were also expected to "earn their keep" which meant their livelihood depended on excellent performance. By the time of the French Revolution, they were filled with Frenchmen but the regimental history and traditions remained. Meanwhile, Chasseurs had been raised to augment the few hussar regiments. And while they initially shared the same type of extravagant uniform (albeit in dark green), the hussars retained their higher esprit de corps.

    Same type of horses, same weapons, same equipment, occasionally even the same type of uniform....So why would hussars be better? But then, why would the brave 18th Demi-Brigade de Ligne be better than the 17th or 19th? The fact is that beyond formal training and equipment, there are numerous reasons why one unit simply is better than the next. One obvious one is the quality of the nco's and officer corps. Another (very important one) is the commanding officer and the standards he set for efficiency (a study of WWII shows that the CO of a division can increase combat effectiveness by 200%!!!!). Men also do better when they believe they are part of an elite and look markedly different from the main body. Another case in point were WWII Russian sailors used as infantry. They lacked even the rudimentary training given to the average infantry but were much better (shock) troops simply because they considered themselves better troops and were send from their ships to help out the groundpounders who couldn't get the job done...

    In short, whenever you have a limited number of 'special' troops, even if the specialness is just based on a different badge, headgear or elaborate whiskers, these special troops will develop a higher morale based on their perceived superiority over equal but lesser troops. It wasn't just the hussar uniform however that created superior light cavalry, the hussars had to be a distinct part of a larger light cavalry force. Otherwise, it just became their uniform and not a true mark of distinction....[\Pendantic History mode]
    I think I may be convinced. Hussars > Chasseurs. I would imagine that this advantage would manifest itself most accurately as higher morale and attack, but we'll see.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceR View Post
    There's lots of historic examples of cavalry and dragoons fighting dismounted with muskets from this period. That napoleonistyka site lists over 20. Yes, they aren't going to win a shooting fight with line infantry, or shouldn't be able to, and it almost always it makes more sense tactically for them to charge, but why remove the option if you don't have to?

    The one issue is that there's no apparent way that's been found to mod in a difference between your mounted and dismounted charge value, so heavy cavalry and lancers probably need to remain mounted to avoid their dismounted versions being able to run up and overrun infantry. (You also get the camera shake effect with dismounted cavalry when they move, as if they had horses, which is kind of odd.) But for cavalry with charge values comparable to regular infantry, like dragoons and light dragoons, there's no issue.

    seems resonable. I completely forgot about charge values (when I had gotten the Carabiniers to dismount, I had some pretty hilarious melee charges with foot guards). Allowing dragoons and chasseurs to dismount seems a good compromise to me. Hussars? I'll have to read up, but I doubt it.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    UPDATE: New partial list of the foreign regiments that will be included.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Army of Napoleon: Bringing the French Military Up to Snuff. *New Units* *New Textures* and more...

    Slightly less would be alright but to much would damage the game. Other than that I think this is a great mod.
    Last edited by the5500th; April 10, 2010 at 09:06 PM.

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