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Thread: Soviet WW2 tactics

  1. #41

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    Is defeating the Kwantung Army, which by August 1945 had been stripped of all its experienced personnel and heavy equipment, and was composed almost entirely of conscripts and (barely) trained as a counter-insurgency force against the natives, not as an active combat force, supposed to be impressive?
    Not really. It is the tactics and discipline that the Soviet army had during that operation that is impressive. While Bagration showed that the Soviets were excellent in macro-strategy and operation, August Storm showed massive improvement on a smaller scale.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by torongill View Post
    Oh, you mean the government's presentation? Yeah, the government will lie to you and will try to hide inconvinient truths, while fanfaring glorious displays of win Business as usual
    The difference being that in the West, the governments didn't (generally - i.e. not as a rule) dictate how the history of WWII was to be written. The USSR made it their business, so to speak.

    Even today it can be difficult to get at some archival material for all but the most experienced people (those that know the Russian system, and know exactly what is they are looking for).

  3. #43

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    The ing Boy Scouts could have shown massive improvement down to the divisional level against the rabble that was the Kwantung Army. Sorry, I'll give due credit where it is earned, like with Bagration, but as far as the Manchurian campaign goes, color me unimpressed. The only thing really inspiring was the constitution of the individual soldiers who were transported in only a couple weeks from Central and Eastern Europe all the way to the Far East to fight another campaign.
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  4. #44

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    The ing Boy Scouts could have shown massive improvement down to the divisional level against the rabble that was the Kwantung Army. Sorry, I'll give due credit where it is earned, like with Bagration, but as far as the Manchurian campaign goes, color me unimpressed. The only thing really inspiring was the constitution of the individual soldiers who were transported in only a couple weeks from Central and Eastern Europe all the way to the Far East to fight another campaign.
    Umm dude, it is the way the tactics and the operation was executed that counts on the professionalism of the soldiers. not who they are fighting.

  5. #45

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    I didn't say that. Nevermind, I shouldn't be bothering with someone who thinks Russia is God's gift to the world.
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    I didn't say that. Nevermind,
    I'm glad you admitted your error of judgment
    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    I shouldn't be bothering with someone who thinks Russia is God's gift to the world.
    My position is that in 1941 the Soviets were one of the worst armed forces in terms of quality, not quantity.
    By 1945, their ground forces were one of the best in terms of quality

    I'm sorry the my position makes me such a fanatically nationalist Russophile.
    Last edited by Applesmack; April 05, 2010 at 03:40 PM.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Sultan Mustafa I View Post
    Truth!
    Russian units had no quality! They went only on numbers!


    I considered arguing with you, but I opted for this instead.
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  8. #48

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Total Fanatic :)
    My position is that in 1941 the Soviets were one of the worst armed forces in terms of quality, not quantity.
    By 1945, their ground forces were one of the best in terms of quality

    I'm sorry the my position makes me such a fanatically nationalist Russophile.
    No, there are plenty of other reasons why you are a fanatically nationalist Russophile, but the above statement is not one of them.
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  9. #49
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    If we are going to talk about swarming the enemy with numbers in men and machinery, then look no further than the US and A. They won most battles by overwhelming the enemy with bodies and mass produced inferior weapons of war. It doesnt matter if a tank is a coffin on tracks, the enemy will run out of shells and fuel so you will win anyway.
    Very true, and sadly forgotten & ignored.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    If we are going to talk about swarming the enemy with numbers in men and machinery, then look no further than the US and A. They won most battles by overwhelming the enemy with bodies and mass produced inferior weapons of war. It doesnt matter if a tank is a coffin on tracks, the enemy will run out of shells and fuel so you will win anyway.
    That's just simply not true, the US had fewer casualties then the opponent in nearly every battle in WW2 and after.
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  11. #51
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    motiv-8, I'll have to disagree with you here. I don't know much about the Kwantung army, but just look at the stats for the japanese forces in Okinawa:
    67 000(77 000 according to other sources) regulars from the 32nd Japanese army, 9 000 IJN troops, of whom a few hundred had equipment and training for ground combat, 39 000 draftees(24 000 conscripted rear-area militia and 15 000 non-uniformed laborers) and 1500 school boys. That's wiki source. So what he have here is a ratio of 7:4.5 of soldiers to armed militia. They were well armed, but the fact remains that 40% of the combatants at Okinawa were in your words "wubbing Boy Scouts".
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  12. #52
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Total Fanatic :) View Post
    Do you only exist to troll? Or is there some hidden goal behind your posts that none can see?
    Yes I got a (hidden) goal. If you want it to know PM me. (I'll only say it to him)
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  13. #53
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by torongill View Post
    motiv-8, I'll have to disagree with you here. I don't know much about the Kwantung army, but just look at the stats for the japanese forces in Okinawa:
    67 000(77 000 according to other sources) regulars from the 32nd Japanese army, 9 000 IJN troops, of whom a few hundred had equipment and training for ground combat, 39 000 draftees(24 000 conscripted rear-area militia and 15 000 non-uniformed laborers) and 1500 school boys. That's wiki source. So what he have here is a ratio of 7:4.5 of soldiers to armed militia. They were well armed, but the fact remains that 40% of the combatants at Okinawa were in your words "wubbing Boy Scouts".
    Okinawa is an island....

    Manchuria is not.

    But if you want to look at a real Japanese Army look at the Philippines:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...enth_Area_Army
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  14. #54

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Salvatorel View Post
    Interesting... what might cause so high casualty rates among "soldiers who underwent training as long as possible" during WWII?
    Mistakes of commanders.
    Especially in battles of Kerch and Kiev casualty rates say otherwise.
    Casualty rates say that commanders made lots of mistakes. The fact that Russians still have beaten Germans (best army in the world at that time) proves it.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by torongill View Post
    motiv-8, I'll have to disagree with you here. I don't know much about the Kwantung army, .
    You're disagreeing even though you don't know much about what you are disagreeing with?

    The Kwangtung army was worthless. It had almost zero combat capabilities, and wouldn't have presented a challenge to any of world's professional armies - let alone the Russians they faced.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    I don't know much about their combat value, at least not as much as I'd like to. He described it as a rabble of rifle-armed raw recruits and I pointed out that 40% of the people the Americans faced at Okinawa were militia, laborers and school students. In two weeks the Russians killed and captured more Japanese soldiers than the American landing force did in two months. And they lost fewer men doing it. That is what I'm talking about. There was a document by an American officer on the Manchurian offensive operation, but I can't find it now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernicus II View Post
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    "Per Ballista ad astra!" - motto of the Roman Legionary Artillery.
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  17. #57

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Wow torongill, way to make a complete non-comparison. I hope you don't REALLY believe that the situations in Manchuria and Okinawa were the same.
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  18. #58
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by torongill View Post
    I don't know much about their combat value, at least not as much as I'd like to. He described it as a rabble of rifle-armed raw recruits and I pointed out that 40% of the people the Americans faced at Okinawa were militia, laborers and school students. In two weeks the Russians killed and captured more Japanese soldiers than the American landing force did in two months. And they lost fewer men doing it. That is what I'm talking about. There was a document by an American officer on the Manchurian offensive operation, but I can't find it now.
    That would be Glantz's August Storm, in which he describes the Kwangtung Army as:

    Despite its numerical strength, the Kwantung Army lacked quality. The Japanese Imperial High Command had transferred most veteran Japanese divisions from Manchuria before the summer of 1945. Hence, most remaining divisions were newly formed from reservists or from cannibalized smaller units. In fact, only the 119th, 107th, 108th, 117th, 63d, and 39th Infantry Divisions had existed before January 1945. Training was limited in all units, and equipment and materiel shortages plagued the Kwantung Army at every level. The Japanese considered none of the Kwantung Army divisions combat ready and some divisions only 15 percent ready

  19. #59

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by motiv-8 View Post
    No, there are plenty of other reasons why you are a fanatically nationalist Russophile, but the above statement is not one of them.
    Of course, there are. Let me guess, is it because I disagree that the Russian Army is entirely composed of serial killers who love nothing better than to kill Chechen babies or is it because I don't believe that the FSB's wet dream is to kill as many of their own peope with a bombing as possible in order to get another crack at those jihadists. Maybe it is both?

  20. #60

    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    None of the above. You could stop cluttering the thread though.
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