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Thread: Soviet WW2 tactics

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    Nikitn's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Soviet WW2 tactics

    The western and Russian media present the Red Army of World War II as a
    valiant horde fighting hard to avenge Nazi atrocities. That view of the Red
    Army
    is patently untrue. Red Army Tactics describes how the Red Army in
    World War II
    was organized and fought at the regimental level and below. The
    unique tactics of Red Army small units provide important lessons for
    professional soldiers everywhere. However, this book does not glorify the
    Red Army
    . It accurately depicts common soviet soldiers as a drunk, hate-filled,
    murderous group looking over their shoulders at soviet secret police units
    ready to kill them if they showed any sign of hesitation. Most of the glorious
    breakthroughs of the Red Army in World War II were obtained by the
    sacrifice of hundreds of suicide penal battalions, forced to attack into the jaws
    of certain death by NKVD blocking troops. Red Army Tactics is a surprising
    book, filled with information available nowhere else.
    The communist regime, being a totally heartless and evil tyranny, was used to murdering millions of human beings. A
    few hundred thousand dead penal battalion inmates were of no concern to Russia's gangster ruling elite.
    Kept under heavy guard in assembly areas near the front, penal units were brought forward and issued weapons
    moments before they were ordered: "... Advance to attack! ..." Then their machine-gun-armed NKVD guard
    companies would herd them into the teeth of German fire. "...They often attacked through minefields as 'tramplers,'
    whose bodies by the score marked the passage of the Red Army through a field...In most Soviet attacks, several penal
    battalions were completely wiped out..."
    The prominent Russian military historian Dmitry Volkogonov obtained classified information from Russian state military
    archives verifying that over 120,000 Soviet soldiers were sentenced to capital punishment and another 800,000 were
    ordered to penal battalions. In fact, nearly two million Red Army combatants were thus murdered by “their own” Soviet
    NKVD units during 1941-45.
    What do you think? is this the truth?
    Last edited by Nikitn; April 05, 2010 at 06:28 AM.

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    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    If we are going to talk about swarming the enemy with numbers in men and machinery, then look no further than the US and A. They won most battles by overwhelming the enemy with bodies and mass produced inferior weapons of war. It doesnt matter if a tank is a coffin on tracks, the enemy will run out of shells and fuel so you will win anyway.




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    Heathen Hammer's Avatar Tribunus Augusticlavii
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    In West there is a general lack of factual information concerning Soviet Union due to Iron Curtain and all that jazz. So its pretty common for Western historians (and post-soviet Russian ones) to throw in random numbers like 1 or 2 million just to impress the reader with so-called "horrors of Soviet regime". But if you think logically, 2 millions of soldiers kiled by Stalin's regime is nowhere near possible.
    As for Soviet tactics, the whole "human wave" thing is very overrated as well. It was usually used as a last resort in the beginning of war, when large Red Army groups got surrounded when Germans attacked. Russians had higher casualties due to other reasons - such as Germans having better officers and more functional cooperation between different branches of military. Also if we look at casualty rates in later stages of war (i.e. battle at Zeelov heights, Berlin) we'll see that Germans were losing more soldiers than Soviets did.
    And of course Soviet military equipment was one of the best, if not the best throughout whole WW2 - T34, IL2, Katjusha, etc.

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    Oklop's Avatar Princeps
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Oh, come on. We all know that Soviet tactics consisted of billions of Russians charging the german lines and eventualy Germans would run out of ammo and soviet dead bodies would burry German soliders, since they were unable to hit anything with their inferior weapons and untermensh eye sight.JK

    Now the only trouble with this teory is that by middle of 1943 more than half of Soviet population was under German ocupation and so unable to be recruited in the red army and trown at the Germans but let us not be distracted by such unimportant details.
    Ugly as the north end of a pig going south

    гурманска пљескавица пуњена ролованом пилетином и умотана у сланину, па све то у кајмаку

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    Celsius's Avatar Praefectus Legionis
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    eh, Soviet Ideology. Throw everything forward and shoot anything coming back

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    Jingles's Avatar Sohei
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    First source seems to hit the nail on the head, at least for the early years. The second source seems to have a political axe to grind, which always irritates me when I'm reading about something like the red army.

    I think the achievements of the Red Army in the second world war are characteristic of Stalin's period -great sacrifice with yet greater achievement.

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    Dr. Croccer's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    It largely depends on the era. For most of 1941 Soviet tactics were comparable to those used in the Russian Civil War, just plain suicidal human wave attacks. These were personally ordered by Stalin. These obviously weren't that effective, as far more Russians than Germans died. They were effective in the sense that the aggressive attacks, and the threat of such attacks slowed down the German advance. Hitler's orders for Army Group Middle to go south towards the Ukrainian were based largely on the (hardly irrational) fear that the large concentrations of Soviet troops there would hammer at the German flanks and rear if left alone for too long. After the winter Stalin became a bit calmer and let his generals take over more, which had great effects. The retreat during the summer of 1942 was far more organised than that of 1941. Suicidal charges were attempted to be kept at a minimum.

    At Stalingrad, when Chuikov took over, Soviet tactics became far more effective. Chuikov's ''guide'' to urban warfare was extremely effective. His quite experienced troops made fortresses out of the rubble of Stalingrad, using submachineguns, throwable explosives and sniper rifles to hold off German attacks. Soviet strategy became far more organised and started to copy the Germans, as evident in the use of schwerpunkten and encirclement during the final stages of Stalingrad. And Kurks where they effectively utilized another ''bait'' which was in actuality a trap. That having been said, Soviet casualties were still extremely large. Whilst Soviet generals were in general extremely talented and evidently used cunning strategies which their enemies and allies would've used as well, actual, down-to-earth tactics were often primitive. Whilst the Soviets had grasped the use of large-unit tactics and strategy, they were still struggling with squad tactics and effective tank formation.

    Alot of that had to do with the primitiveness of the country. Tank tactics weren't that advanced because most Soviet tanks lacked a proper form of communications for most of the war. Many Soviet tanks lacked radios, using a form of communications which involved the use of coloured flags. Whilst intricate and surprisingly effective, it was clearly inferior to radio communication. The tanks that had radios often couldn't communicate back, as these were primitive Soviet ones. The only ones that could both receive and send was the ones the leader tanks had. When the leader in a group was destroyed, which they often were, as they tended to lead the formation, the entire group was cut off from the rest of the Soviet army and from eachother. This often led to chaos, or/and extremely ineffective attempts at trying to continue the assault or defence. And of course the poor training of infantry. Whilst the bulk of troops from any army of the war were often of the worst quality that that respective army could allow, the Soviets' were the worst. Many troops were peasants, often illiterate. They often had zero motivation, apart from getting shot or sent to a penal battalion. Training was often primitive, especially during the first years of the war, with all the shortages of weapons. Squad based tactics were ergo impossible for a long time as they simply lacked a variety in weaponry. The overwhelming majority of Soviet soldiers were armed with Mosin rifles and PPSh submachineguns. Whilst the Soviet soldiers were effective in places like Stalingrad, this had more to do with their own experience than training. They learned to utilize the surroundings to their maximum benefit, but only after they had fought several times and thousands of others who failed to learn died or were wounded. Despite that, Soviet soldiers were often forced to move in large formations, which would be regarded suicidal by Western armies, and which were suicidal in the case of 1941 and various others, like Seelow. It's hardly surprising that many Soviet soldiers drank large amounts of vodka to cool their nerves. Whilst there was a limit to how much a soldier would get, the soldiers themselves often traded their rations for loot or whatnot, or received or grabbed the rations of their fallen comrades. Many of the soldiers that fought in major battles, were most likely drunk, or at the very least a little tipsy. And who can blame them. Many soldiers obeyed the suicidal orders of their leaders, even if they were experienced enought to know that they were suicidal, like the soldiers in WWI, because of the fear of getting punished. There really was a battering down through the chain of command. Stalin battered generals. Generals battered officers worse. And officers battered their men even roughly. So Stalin threatened Chuikov at Stalingrad when he made mistakes, whilst Chuikov beat his officers with a cane when they made mistakes, whilst those officers shot soldiers which didn't obey them.

    In essence late Soviet tactics didn't differ that much from American/British tactics when assaulting a German position: bomb the positions with overwhelming artillery and aeroplane fire; attack with large amounts of armored units, and then send in the infantry. It often worked, but sometimes, in the case of Berlin and Seelow for the Soviets, and St. Lo and Hurtgenwald for the Allies, it went a bit badly. The real differences was in the relatively complex squad and armored formations the Allies had, and their relative caution compared to the Soviets.
    Last edited by Dr. Croccer; April 05, 2010 at 08:14 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

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    Nikitn's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    It largely depends on the era. For most of 1941 Soviet tactics were comparable to those used in the Russian Civil War, just plain suicidal human wave attacks. These were personally ordered by Stalin. These obviously weren't that effective, as far more Russians than Germans died. They were effective in the sense that the aggressive attacks, and the threat of such attacks slowed down the German advance. Hitler's orders for Army Group Middle to go south towards the Ukrainian were based largely on the (hardly irrational) fear that the large concentrations of Soviet troops there would hammer at the German flanks and rear if left alone for too long. After the winter Stalin became a bit calmer and let his generals take over more, which had great effects. The retreat during the summer of 1942 was far more organised than that of 1941. Suicidal charges were attempted to be kept at a minimum.

    At Stalingrad, when Chuikov took over, Soviet tactics became far more effective. Chuikov's ''guide'' to urban warfare was extremely effective. His quite experienced troops made fortresses out of the rubble of Stalingrad, using submachineguns, throwable explosives and sniper rifles to hold off German attacks. Soviet strategy became far more organised and started to copy the Germans, as evident in the use of schwerpunkten and encirclement during the final stages of Stalingrad. And Kurks where they effectively utilized another ''bait'' which was in actuality a trap. That having been said, Soviet casualties were still extremely large. Whilst Soviet generals were in general extremely talented and evidently used cunning strategies which their enemies and allies would've used as well, actual, down-to-earth tactics were often primitive. Whilst the Soviets had grasped the use of large-unit tactics and strategy, they were still struggling with squad tactics and effective tank formation.

    Alot of that had to do with the primitiveness of the country. Tank tactics weren't that advanced because most Soviet tanks lacked a proper form of communications for most of the war. Many Soviet tanks lacked radios, using a form of communications which involved the use of coloured flags. Whilst intricate and surprisingly effective, it was clearly inferior to radio communication. The tanks that had radios often couldn't communicate back, as these were primitive Soviet ones. The only ones that could both receive and send was the ones the leader tanks had. When the leader in a group was destroyed, which they often were, as they tended to lead the formation, the entire group was cut off from the rest of the Soviet army and from eachother. This often led to chaos, or/and extremely ineffective attempts at trying to continue the assault or defence. And of course the poor training of infantry. Whilst the bulk of troops from any army of the war were often of the worst quality that that respective army could allow, the Soviets' were the worst. Many troops were peasants, often illiterate. They often had zero motivation, apart from getting shot or sent to a penal battalion. Training was often primitive, especially during the first years of the war, with all the shortages of weapons. Squad based tactics were ergo impossible for a long time as they simply lacked a variety in weaponry. The overwhelming majority of Soviet soldiers were armed with Mosin rifles and PPSh submachineguns. Whilst the Soviet soldiers were effective in places like Stalingrad, this had more to do with their own experience than training. They learned to utilize the surroundings to their maximum benefit, but only after they had fought several times and thousands of others who failed to learn died or were wounded. Despite that, Soviet soldiers were often forced to move in large formations, which would be regarded suicidal by Western armies, and which were suicidal in the case of 1941 and various others, like Seelow. It's hardly surprising that many Soviet soldiers drank large amounts of vodka to cool their nerves. Whilst there was a limit to how much a soldier would get, the soldiers themselves often traded their rations for loot or whatnot, or received or grabbed the rations of their fallen comrades. Many of the soldiers that fought in major battles, were most likely drunk, or at the very least a little tipsy. And who can blame them. Many soldiers obeyed the suicidal orders of their leaders, even if they were experienced enought to know that they were suicidal, like the soldiers in WWI, because of the fear of getting punished. There really was a battering down through the chain of command. Stalin battered generals. Generals battered officers worse. And officers battered their men even roughly. So Stalin threatened Chuikov at Stalingrad when he made mistakes, whilst Chuikov beat his officers with a cane when they made mistakes, whilst those officers shot soldiers which didn't obey them.
    Ehh, drunk while fighting in battle?????? Do you seriously think someone could aim a weapon while drunk?? As for the rest:

    No. Soviet command did not issue "suicidal orders" after 1941 and early 1942. That was when Stalin and his allies were stepping down, realizing how useless they were.

    Soviet literacy rate was 75% in 1939.

    Soviet soldiers were recieving as long training as possible.

    Battle of Zeelowe was hard because the Germans knew of its importance, so they had been fortifying it for many weeks. It was basically a heavily fortified mountain that was behind a river.

    Soviet tactics were clearly among the best during WW2, as was shown in 1944 and 1945.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jingle_Bombs View Post
    First source seems to hit the nail on the head, at least for the early years. The second source seems to have a political axe to grind, which always irritates me when I'm reading about something like the red army.

    I think the achievements of the Red Army in the second world war are characteristic of Stalin's period -great sacrifice with yet greater achievement.
    None of those are correct.

    I think the allies lost what, 3 times more dead & wounded than the Germans during the invasion of France? I don't think that Soviet soliders were bad at the outbreak of the war, but that Germans were extremely good and that Soviet leadership was extremely bad because politicians (Stalin's) were in charge.. Also, Soviets were completely and totally unprepared, unlike the French (who were fighting for many months until the Germans invaded).
    Last edited by Nikitn; April 05, 2010 at 09:23 AM.

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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Soviet soldiers were recieving as long training as possible.
    Interesting... what might cause so high casualty rates among "soldiers who underwent training as long as possible" during WWII?
    Soviet tactics were clearly among the best during WW2
    Especially in battles of Kerch and Kiev casualty rates say otherwise.
    Be like Ostrich and you'll be happy
    Be an idealist and you'll stay optimistic... If life allows you

  10. #10
    Dr. Croccer's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    Ehh, drunk while fighting in battle?????? Do you seriously think someone could aim a weapon while drunk??
    Many of them probably didn't get the chance to.

    No. Soviet command did not issue "suicidal orders" after 1941 and early 1942. That was when Stalin and his allies were stepping down, realizing how useless they were.
    With ''suicidal orders'', I don't necessarily mean human wave attacks at submachineguns, but decision which most Western armies would regard to be suicidal, and generally had high casualty rates for the Soviets. The decision to not attack Berlin straight away, but to wait and attack when Berlin was fortified was quite suicidal. A lot of needless deaths could've been avoided.

    Soviet literacy rate was 75% in 1939.
    That still means that there were 35% of the population that wasn't.


    Soviet soldiers were recieving as long training as possible.
    Which, when three army groups are marching upon your capital, was a soon as they knew how to fire a gun and march. Training generally improved after 1943 but it still was inferior compared to that the Brits or Americans received.

    Battle of Zeelowe was hard because the Germans knew of its importance, so they had been fortifying it for many weeks. It was basically a heavily fortified mountain that was behind a river.
    Yes. That was rather my point. The same applies to St. Lo and Hurtgenwald.

    Soviet tactics were clearly among the best during WW2, as was shown in 1944 and 1945.
    After 1941? From a strategic POV, probably. The Germans, mainly thanks to Hitler, made a lot of errors after 1942, as did the Allies. The Soviets learned a lot from their intial defeats and from winter 1942 till the end of the war they were the most prudent and effective with their strategy. The Soviet generals were defintely the most organised and coherent. After 1941 they were largely left alone by Stalin, and most of them, Chuikov, Zhukov, Konev and Rokossovsky were very competent. There was very little competition between them, there was some between Konev and Zhukov in the quest to reach Berlin, but nothing of the open disobedience and disrespect that the Allied generals showed to one another, that often had a negative effect on the entire war effort. As the war progressed Stalin became less involved in the war effort, which was a good thing; whilst Hitler became increasingly involved and started making the same idiotic mistakes that Stalin did at the beginning, and even bigger ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

  11. #11
    Nikitn's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Many of them probably didn't get the chance to.
    People didn't drink vodka b4 a battle.

    With ''suicidal orders'', I don't necessarily mean human wave attacks at submachineguns, but decision which most Western armies would regard to be suicidal, and generally had high casualty rates for the Soviets. The decision to not attack Berlin straight away, but to wait and attack when Berlin was fortified was quite suicidal. A lot of needless deaths could've been avoided.
    Uhm, Berlin was attacked as soon as possible. I do not understand why Soviet soldiers were ordered 2 do suicidal attacks. If anything, it was Die Wemacht which was suicidal, with brilliant tactics like using kamikaze aircraft at bridges and ramming heavy aircraft with their own

    That still means that there were 35% of the population that wasn't.
    25*%. Back then a 75% literacy rate was high. Most of the illiterate lived in far away regions I presume, and they wouldn't be recruited most likely.

    Old dog can't learn new tricks. Schools were teaching young people, the same ones who were going to war, how 2 read. Not 40 year old farmers.
    Which, when three army groups are marching upon your capital, was a soon as they knew how to fire a gun and march. Training generally improved after 1943 but it still was inferior compared to that the Brits or Americans received.
    The Germans themselves admit how superiourly trained Soviet soldiers were in late war.

    After 1941? From a strategic POV, probably. The Germans, mainly thanks to Hitler, made a lot of errors after 1942, as did the Allies. The Soviets learned a lot from their intial defeats and from winter 1942 till the end of the war they were the most prudent and effective with their strategy. The Soviet generals were defintely the most organised and coherent. After 1941 they were largely left alone by Stalin, and most of them, Chuikov, Zhukov, Konev and Rokossovsky were very competent. There was very little competition between them, there was some between Konev and Zhukov in the quest to reach Berlin, but nothing of the open disobedience and disrespect that the Allied generals showed to one another, that often had a negative effect on the entire war effort. As the war progressed Stalin became less involved in the war effort, which was a good thing; whilst Hitler became increasingly involved and started making the same idiotic mistakes that Stalin did at the beginning, and even bigger ones.
    Soviet deep battle tactics completely smashed the Germans. In 1944 and 1945 the Soviets were advancing as fast the Germans were advancing in 1941 and 1942.

  12. #12
    Dr. Croccer's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    People didn't drink vodka b4 a battle.
    Yes they did. Every Soviet soldier had a ration of 100 grams of vodka.

    Uhm, Berlin was attacked as soon as possible.
    The Vistula-Oder offensive ended february 2. The battle of Berlin started on the 16th. That was a large mistake, as Zhukov could've easily overrun the then almost defenseless Berlin on the 2nd, whilst by the 16th Berlin was heavily defended and reinforced. German troops had a knack for turning pretty much anything in a fortress in a matter of days.

    [quote] I do not understand why Soviet soldiers were ordered 2 do suicidal attacks. [/quote ]Because of factors I mentioned, mainly the fact that while Soviet strategic thinking developed itself, tactic thinking remained relatively primitive. Whilst they became less suicidal over the course of the war, they still weren't exactly cautious.

    If anything, it was Die Wemacht which was suicidal, with brilliant tactics like using kamikaze aircraft at bridges and ramming heavy aircraft with their own
    Erm, what? The Soviets used kamikaze aircraft first. During 1941 many Soviet pilots rammed enemy German planes. The jet-propelled aircraft that the Germans used weren't meant to be kamikaze, they simply couldn't land those things.

    25*%. Back then a 75% literacy rate was high.
    For Russia perhaps. Back in 1914 nearly 30% of the French were iliterate, but even then less than 10% of Brits were, and less than 0.1% of Germans.

    Most of the illiterate lived in far away regions I presume, and they wouldn't be recruited most likely.
    By the end of the war the USSR started to run out of ''civilised'' manpower, and had to recruit more from its Asian, more obscure provinces. IIRC, by the end of the war nearly half of Soviet recruits were non-Russians.

    Old dog can't learn new tricks. Schools were teaching young people, the same ones who were going to war, how 2 read. Not 40 year old farmers.
    We both know that it wasn't simply young men who fought in the Red Army.

    The Germans themselves admit how superiourly trained Soviet soldiers were in late war.
    Source?

    Soviet deep battle tactics completely smashed the Germans. In 1944 and 1945 the Soviets were advancing as fast the Germans were advancing in 1941 and 1942.
    Again, no-one's denying that. But those are the large unit tactics, the strategy devised by Zhukov and such. The main point is casualties. The Germans never suffered as many casualties from 1939-1942 during their blitzkrieg. The most likely reason for that was the fact that they had both an effective strategy and effective small unit tactics. Effective squad and tank organisation.
    Last edited by Dr. Croccer; April 05, 2010 at 11:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Yes they did. Every Soviet soldier had a ration of 100 grams of vodka.
    Wait, are you still arguing this? Have you even been drunk IRL? No way in hell ANYONE would be drunk while fighting in battle. Dunno where you guys get this stuff from.
    The Vistula-Oder offensive ended february 2. The battle of Berlin started on the 16th. That was a large mistake, as Zhukov could've easily overrun the then almost defenseless Berlin on the 2nd, whilst by the 16th Berlin was heavily defended and reinforced. German troops had a knack for turning pretty much anything in a fortress in a matter of days.
    You are confused. The Assault of Berlin started in the later part of April. The fighting around Berlin had been going in since February.

    You mean that Soviets did not start their Berlin offensive until April? Well guess what Soviets also are humans. They cannot fight without fuel or ammuniton. They needed 2 re-establish supply after the Vistula Oder offensive.
    I do not understand why Soviet soldiers were ordered 2 do suicidal attacks. [/quote ]Because of factors I mentioned, mainly the fact that while Soviet strategic thinking developed itself, tactic thinking remained relatively primitive. Whilst they became less suicidal over the course of the war, they still weren't exactly cautious.
    And you base this on what??? Both the allies and the Soviets assaulted German positions head on because there was no other way. And often due 2 superiour firepower, the Germans actually took higher casualties.
    Erm, what? The Soviets used kamikaze aircraft first. During 1941 many Soviet pilots rammed enemy German planes. The jet-propelled aircraft that the Germans used weren't meant to be kamikaze, they simply couldn't land those things.
    Germans used Kamikaze aircraft 2 blow up bridges. Mostly these were shot down by the Soviets b4 they even came close 2 their target.
    For Russia perhaps. Back in 1914 nearly 30% of the French were iliterate, but even then less than 10% of Brits were, and less than 0.1% of Germans.
    Germany did not have a literacy rate of 99.9%. Norway, Greece Yugoslavia, Romania, maybe a bit Spain et cetra were not as developed as Hungary or Austria.
    By the end of the war the USSR started to run out of ''civilised'' manpower, and had to recruit more from its Asian, more obscure provinces. IIRC, by the end of the war nearly half of Soviet recruits were non-Russians.

    We both know that it wasn't simply young men who fought in the Red Army.
    Except you claimed that Red Army was filled with illiterate recruits. This is false.

    [quoote]Source?

    Again, no-one's denying that. But those are the large unit tactics, the strategy devised by Zhukov and such. The main point is casualties. The Germans never suffered as many casualties from 1939-1942 during their blitzkrieg. The most likely reason for that was the fact that they had both an effective strategy and effective small unit tactics. Effective squad and tank organisation.
    If you want a Western source read Glantz's Clash of the titans or check out battlefields: battle of berlin on youtube. Also, by 1945 German soldiers did not recieve any serious amount of training.

    Germans took over 1 million dead by the end of 1942. By 1945 total axis KIA were ~4.3 million against Soviet ~6 million+ KIA.

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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    If we are going to talk about swarming the enemy with numbers in men and machinery, then look no further than the US and A. They won most battles by overwhelming the enemy with bodies and mass produced inferior weapons of war. It doesnt matter if a tank is a coffin on tracks, the enemy will run out of shells and fuel so you will win anyway.
    Yeah, nothing beats sending ten soldiers with only one rifle.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

    "Feminists are silent when the bills arrive." -- Aetius

    "Women have made a pact with the devil in return for the promise of exquisite beauty, their window to this world of lavish male attention is woefully brief." -- Some Guy

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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Like the Indonesians did against the Dutch you mean??

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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    Wait, are you still arguing this? Have you even been drunk IRL? No way in hell ANYONE would be drunk while fighting in battle. Dunno where you guys get this stuff from.
    Anthony Beevor, Stalingrad, Battle for Berlin, Max hastings, Armageddon.


    You are confused. The Assault of Berlin started in the later part of April. The fighting around Berlin had been going in since February.

    You mean that Soviets did not start their Berlin offensive until April? Well guess what Soviets also are humans. They cannot fight without fuel or ammuniton. They needed 2 re-establish supply after the Vistula Oder offensive.
    Zhukov himself stated that if he were allowed, he would take Berlin without any real struggle.



    If you want a Western source read Glantz's Clash of the titans or check out battlefields: battle of berlin on youtube.
    I've already read several sources on it, thank you. Now, can you give me a quote in which a German general or such states that Soviet troops were very well trained?

    Also, by 1945 German soldiers did not recieve any serious amount of training.
    Yes, but I fail to see how that means that the Soviets suddenly are well trained.

    Germans took over 1 million dead by the end of 1942. By 1945 total axis KIA were ~4.3 million against Soviet ~6 million+ KIA.[/QUOTE]

    And you base this on what???
    Every book on the Eastern Front ever.

    Both the allies and the Soviets assaulted German positions head on because there was no other way.
    Yes, but often the Allies suffered far less casualties than the Soviets.

    Germans used Kamikaze aircraft 2 blow up bridges. Mostly these were shot down by the Soviets b4 they even came close 2 their target.
    Prove it.

    Except you claimed that Red Army was filled with illiterate recruits. This is false.
    If 25% of the Soviet population is illiterate, then there's a large chance that alot of soldiers would be illiterate as well.

    Like the Indonesians did against the Dutch you mean??
    Ten men and one pointy stick.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

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    jankren's Avatar Samurai
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    Like the Indonesians did against the Dutch you mean??
    Owww, its getting personal I see.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

    "Feminists are silent when the bills arrive." -- Aetius

    "Women have made a pact with the devil in return for the promise of exquisite beauty, their window to this world of lavish male attention is woefully brief." -- Some Guy

  18. #18
    No, that isn't a banana
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Russians (and Germans) got drunk prior, during, and after battle - whenever they could. The Russians had mastered the art of refining crude booze from potatoes and grain - or became very adept at locating civilian stashes of the home-brewed stuff.

    Russian small-unit tactics were inferior to German tactics during much of the war. Russian strategy however, improved. Perhaps you are confusing tactics with strategy? In any event, Russian generals made plenty of strategic and operational level errors after 1941.

    Russian soldiers did not get a lot of training (although when you say as "much as possible" this isn't necessarily wrong), and they certainly were not the best trained in the war.

    The Red Army very rarely (if ever - especially after 1941) rejected anyone for being illiterate. You don't need to read or write to shoot a gun or die.

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    Nikitn's Avatar Centurio Primus Ordine
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by OTZ View Post
    Russians (and Germans) got drunk prior, during, and after battle - whenever they could. The Russians had mastered the art of refining crude booze from potatoes and grain - or became very adept at locating civilian stashes of the home-brewed stuff.
    No they did not. When they were in safety, they drank themselves drunk whenever they got the booze. In a battle not even the dumbest idiot would drink. It would get him killed in no time.

    Russian small-unit tactics were inferior to German tactics during much of the war. Russian strategy however, improved. Perhaps you are confusing tactics with strategy? In any event, Russian generals made plenty of strategic and operational level errors after 1941.

    Russian soldiers did not get a lot of training (although when you say as "much as possible" this isn't necessarily wrong), and they certainly were not the best trained in the war.

    The Red Army very rarely (if ever - especially after 1941) rejected anyone for being illiterate. You don't need to read or write to shoot a gun or die.
    Soviet soldiers were of higher quality than the German ones in general in 1945.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Anthony Beevor, Stalingrad, Battle for Berlin, Max hastings, Armageddon.
    I've red Stalingrad and Berlin by Beevor (just so I would know why he was such an idiot author). Never stood that Soviet soldiers would get drunk b4 a battle.
    Zhukov himself stated that if he were allowed, he would take Berlin without any real struggle.
    But he couldn't.

    I've already read several sources on it, thank you. Now, can you give me a quote in which a German general or such states that Soviet troops were very well trained?

    Yes, but I fail to see how that means that the Soviets suddenly are well trained.

    Germans took over 1 million dead by the end of 1942. By 1945 total axis KIA were ~4.3 million against Soviet ~6 million+ KIA.
    Ehh, read the book and check the videos. Those are testemonies from German soldiers and officers.

    Every book on the Eastern Front ever.
    So provide examples of why Soviets were more sucidal than the Allies or Germans - AFTER 1942 that is.

    Yes, but often the Allies suffered far less casualties than the Soviets.
    Ya, like in battle of France. Rite.....
    Prove it.
    If 25% of the Soviet population is illiterate, then there's a large chance that alot of soldiers would be illiterate as well.
    Oh my, a few soldiers are illiterate. That is not what you said.

    Ten men and one pointy stick.
    But then again the Dutch were very good at "cleansing" entire regions of "criminals (people who wanted indipendence)".

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    Dr. Croccer's Avatar Tribunus Laticlavius
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    Default Re: Soviet WW2 tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirov123 View Post
    But he couldn't.
    Because of the Stavka. Hence why I called it a stupid move.
    Ehh, read the book and check the videos. Those are testemonies from German soldiers and officers.
    Give me one or two.
    So provide examples of why Soviets were more sucidal than the Allies or Germans - AFTER 1942 that is.
    The greatly higher casualties for one.

    Ya, like in battle of France. Rite.....
    Prove it.
    I'm talking about after 1942 here. Unless you want me to count Soviet casualties from 1941. The prisoners alone are bigger than the entire Western front of 1940.
    Oh my, a few soldiers are illiterate. That is not what you said.
    I said ''many''. I consider 63 or so million people to be ''many''. It's doubtful that not at least a few million were in the Red Army.

    But then again the Dutch were very good at "cleansing" entire regions of "criminals (people who wanted indipendence)".
    Russians be da pro at dat tho'. Respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.J.P. Taylor
    Peaceful agreement and government by consent are possible only on the basis of ideas common to all parties; and these ideas must spring from habit and from history. Once reason is introduced, every man, every class, every nation becomes a law unto itself; and the only right which reason understands is the right of the stronger. Reason formulates universal principles and is therefore intolerant: there can be only one rational society, one rational nation, ultimately one rational man. Decisions between rival reasons can be made only by force.





    Quote Originally Posted by H.L Spieghel
    Is het niet hogelijk te verwonderen, en een recht beklaaglijke zaak, Heren, dat alhoewel onze algemene Dietse taal een onvermengde, sierlijke en verstandelijke spraak is, die zich ook zo wijd als enige talen des werelds verspreidt, en die in haar bevang veel rijken, vorstendommen en landen bevat, welke dagelijks zeer veel kloeke en hooggeleerde verstanden uitleveren, dat ze nochtans zo zwakkelijk opgeholpen en zo weinig met geleerdheid verrijkt en versiert wordt, tot een jammerlijk hinder en nadeel des volks?
    Quote Originally Posted by Miel Cools
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen,
    Oud ben maar nog niet verrot.
    Zoals oude bomen zingen,
    Voor Jan Lul of voor hun god.
    Ook een oude boom wil reizen,
    Bij een bries of bij een storm.
    Zelfs al zit zijn kruin vol luizen,
    Zelfs al zit zijn voet vol worm.
    Als ik oud ben wil ik zingen.

    C am Fear am measg ant-sluaigh,
    A mhaireas buan gu brth?
    Chan eil sinn uileadh ach air chuart,
    Mar dhthein buaile fs,
    Bheir siantannan na bliadhna sos,
    'S nach tog a' ghrian an ird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jrg Friedrich
    When do I stop being a justified warrior? When I've killed a million bad civilians? When I've killed three million bad civilians? According to a warsimulation by the Pentagon in 1953 the entire area of Russia would've been reduced to ruins with 60 million casualties. All bad Russians. 60 million bad guys. By how many million ''bad'' casualties do I stop being a knight of justice? Isn't that the question those knights must ask themselves? If there's no-one left, and I remain as the only just one,

    Then I'm God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis Napoleon III, Des Idees Napoleoniennes
    Governments have been established to aid society to overcome the obstacles which impede its march. Their forms have been varied according to the problems they have been called to cure, and according to character of the people they have ruled over. Their task never has been, and never will be easy, because the two contrary elements, of which our existence and the nature of society is composed, demand the employment of different means. In view of our divine essence, we need only liberty and work; in view of our mortal nature, we need for our direction a guide and a support. A government is not then, as a distinguished economist has said, a necessary ulcer; it is rather the beneficent motive power of all social organisation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfgang Held
    I walked into those baracks [of Buchenwald concentrationcamp], in which there were people on the three-layered bunkbeds. But only their eyes were alive. Emaciated, skinny figures, nothing more but skin and bones. One thinks that they are dead, because they did not move. Only the eyes. I started to cry. And then one of the prisoners came, stood by me for a while, put a hand on my shoulder and said to me, something that I will never forget: ''Trnen sind denn nicht genug, mein Junge,
    Trnen sind denn nicht genug.''

    Jajem ssoref is m'n korew
    E goochem mit e wenk, e nar mit e shtomp
    Wer niks is, hot kawsones

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