Yeah well, you get my point.
It is possible, but very complicated so there is no guarantee.
I have few old ideas I need to test as well, that hopefully will allow larger units and animations for generals while keeping the rest of the general animations the same size. So Morgoth is going to be the same size as the Sauron model? If I were you I would lower their sizes, including the Balrog. Maybe around half the size. Morgoth may have chosen to depict himself as very large in his Dark Lord form, but Sauron and the Balrogs probably were not as large.
Last edited by alreadyded; March 05, 2011 at 07:50 PM.
you could make balrogs man size and a general then make a trait that gives them like 10+ hitpoints? and then give them a bodygaurd so yea?
I didn't say they weren't intelligent, I said they probably didn't care about commanding troops and owning lands, etc. Ungoliant for example only cares about devouring everything, NOTHING ELSE. So while she COULD do it, she wouldn't. She would just eat them all I guess. I would imagine the balrogs didn't really pay attention to the Orcs. They probably just stomped on them if they were in they way. Therefore they don't need to be generals, they can just be recruitable units.
There is a way to prevent the faction from adopting new generals though, I did it in my mod for my creature factions. But I forgot how. When they do recruit them, they instantly die as if they never existed. With seven really tough balrog generals the rest of the armies can just use captains I think. That way we can win some battles at least . And be super scared of certain armies and have to wear them down over multiple battles. Much like in the First Age where a lot of the roving armies just had Orc captains and usually got slaughtered unless they really outnumber their foes, and when it was important Morgoth sent Glaurung or balrogs along.
Last edited by alreadyded; March 06, 2011 at 02:37 AM.
Sauron in this mod should be man-sized, and the Balrogs could be something like troll-sized, if not dragon-sized (so Glaurung would fit too). But Morgoth should definitely be the same size as the Sauron model, don't you think?
I thought we went over this. Balrogs can't be just recruitable units, since they were powerful fallen Maiar, and since there were only 7 of them. And at least one of them (Gothmog) did care about commanding troops, and happens to be the faction heir, so he needs to be a general.
Think of the Balrogs the same way as the Nazgul of TATW - the Nazgul didn't command troops either (except one of them, the Witch-king, and maybe also Khamul from Dol Guldur)
Oh yeah, I forgot about that! That happens when a faction doesn't have a unit asigned as general_unit (bodyguard) in EDU. Simple.There is a way to prevent the faction from adopting new generals though, I did it in my mod for my creature factions. But I forgot how. When they do recruit them, they instantly die as if they never existed.
With seven really tough balrog generals the rest of the armies can just use captains I think. That way we can win some battles at least . And be super scared of certain armies and have to wear them down over multiple battles. Much like in the First Age where a lot of the roving armies just had Orc captains and usually got slaughtered unless they really outnumber their foes, and when it was important Morgoth sent Glaurung or balrogs along.
I realize that you want balrog generals and it is believable, I was just speaking hypothetically as he misunderstood me. With only a few references to them who knows? You can get away with just about anything as none of us knows, or even the peeps in Middle-Earth knew what they were like. They probably wouldn't be as cool if we did. The whole mysterious 'thing.'
I think Morgoth the same size as Sauron is good. The units will function much better with scaled down animations as well, so that is a bonus!
They should tower over Men and Elves, so at least a head bigger, but giving them troll-guards and them being smaller would look weird. Probably troll-size is the best option.
As Glassakias pointed out, Fingolfin was down on the ground then, and Morgoth tried to step on him (which he did). Also, the Balrog at the bridge 'grew', maybe this was the same kind of 'illusion'?Sauron I can only think of as man-sized (according to how he is described), but Morgoth would have to be at least the same size as Sauron's model for TATW. He is a Vala, and he is described as literally towering above Fingolfin, and apparently Fingolfin was only able to wound Morgoth's foot (which probably means he couldn't reach higher), as it says that "Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day".
Oops.As for Beren cutting the Silmaril - he didn't have to climb, because the crown fell down and rolled on the floor, when Morgoth fell into slumber. ("the iron crown rolled echoing from his head.")
Apart from the fact that they can't be recruitable (no really, there's no mention of Maiar joining Morgoth in the First Age), in HoM-e there was made mention of Balrog captains leading legions of Orcs. So at least in the early stages of development, they were leaders. And then there's Gothmog, whom I believe to be a commander (don't have anything to prove it, though. Just a feeling).
That seems good. In autocalc characters often survive, so the Balrogs will probably stay alive for very, very long. We might need to script some aid for the AI, though, if it runs out of Balrogs too soon. We'll see once we enter testing phase.There is a way to prevent the faction from adopting new generals though, I did it in my mod for my creature factions. But I forgot how. When they do recruit them, they instantly die as if they never existed. With seven really tough balrog generals the rest of the armies can just use captains I think. That way we can win some battles at least . And be super scared of certain armies and have to wear them down over multiple battles. Much like in the First Age where a lot of the roving armies just had Orc captains and usually got slaughtered unless they really outnumber their foes, and when it was important Morgoth sent Glaurung or balrogs along.
If it will work, why not?
I think we can make many people happy with this solution. Does either of you mind if I post that in some other places?Oh yeah, I forgot about that! That happens when a faction doesn't have a unit asigned as general_unit (bodyguard) in EDU. Simple.
Agreed. And it was a nice lore-argument.
So you think it will work this way (?): troll sized Balrogs and a huge Morgoth, both as generals, and at least the Balrogs (perhaps Morgoth as well) with bodyguards.I think Morgoth the same size as Sauron is good. The units will function much better with scaled down animations as well, so that is a bonus!
The Enemy of Human Souls
Sat grieving at the cost of coals;
For Hell had been annexed of late,
And was a sovereign Southern State.
Considering them as commanders of Morgorths orcs there are quite a few references (source essay http://lotrplaza.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=235254);
Still they most likely was so mighty and powerfull that any little orc who stood in their way would get trampled down (Just my feeling)Now these had sustained a terrible conflict in the Great Market to the east of the City, where a force of Orcs led by Balrogs came on them at unawares as they marched by a circuitous way to the fight about the gate.
-HoME II: The Book of Lost Tales II, The Fall of Gondolin
the Orcs went forth to rape and war,
and Balrog captains marched before.
-HoME III: The Lays of Beleriand, The Lay of Leithian
Along that narrow way their march was strung, when it was ambushed by an outpost of Morgoth’s power; and a Balrog was their leader.
-HoME IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth, The Quenta, §16
But now Gothmog lord of Balrogs, captain of the hosts of Melko, took counsel and gathered all his things of iron that could coil themselves and above all of the obstacles before them.
-HoME II: Book of Lost Tales II, The Fall of Gondolin
Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, was come
-The Silmarillion, Of The Fifth Battle
Sounds good
"The idea that the Balrog could become ‘a great height’ has often been used as evidence that Balrogs are, in fact, quite large. But it was illusion. Just as Gandalf demonstrates, while fighting the wolves that attacked the party on the western side of the Misty Mountains, the Balrog appears to be greater than it is. It is worth noting that the ‘darkness’, the aura of shadow, increases as the Balrog appears to become larger, as it was introduced in the same drafting that begat the idea that the Balrog ‘felt larger than it looked’. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that the Balrog gained height, unless one believes Gandalf did as well. And so Balrogs remain at the previously stated stature, somewhere around or just shy of six and a half feet tall." -the quoted essayAs Glassakias pointed out, Fingolfin was down on the ground then, and Morgoth tried to step on him (which he did). Also, the Balrog at the bridge 'grew', maybe this was the same kind of 'illusion'?
See red quotes aboveApart from the fact that they can't be recruitable (no really, there's no mention of Maiar joining Morgoth in the First Age), in HoM-e there was made mention of Balrog captains leading legions of Orcs. So at least in the early stages of development, they were leaders. And then there's Gothmog, whom I believe to be a commander (don't have anything to prove it, though. Just a feeling).
True to lore, propably mighty in-gameSo you think it will work this way (?): troll sized Balrogs and a huge Morgoth, both as generals, and at least the Balrogs (perhaps Morgoth as well) with bodyguards.
Last edited by Ngugi; March 06, 2011 at 11:22 AM.
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You already posted that, and I refered to it.
I just remember there was trouble regarding the Sauron-model and siege battles, I don't remember what exactly. But we can just place Morgoth somewhere behind a settlement to fix that, if necessary.
Oh, and before I forget: + rep to everyone. I've learned quite a lot during this discussion.
The Enemy of Human Souls
Sat grieving at the cost of coals;
For Hell had been annexed of late,
And was a sovereign Southern State.
Last edited by alreadyded; March 06, 2011 at 11:59 PM.
I'm a big fan. Keep the good work up!
Hope you remember Moroght can't exit Angband but you doubtlessely thought of that.^^
Furthermore I'll have to say that so far, Gondolin might be a little too coloured.^^ Blue and green and red and violet and golden may be a little too much. Just saying.
@joris: the matter with sauron is that the game crashes in siege battles with his unit. something to do with the elephant thing i think.\
@eryn: thanks for the support. morgoth wont be able to exit angbad, that's for sure. the colors of the houses of gondolin are the ones described by tolkien btw...
true true, my bad Should had looked closer
Agree, great with such constructive discussions whom all could gain from
* Do you have any campaign map yet to show, with regions and what regions each factions will have? Would be fun to watch.
* Plan to dedicate the coming summer to learn modelling and/or skinning because one (read me) get quite jealous at people who can make true ideas and visons when one can not haha
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Favorite TATW compilation: Withwnars Submod Collection
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Modding is stressful sometimes, yet very rewarding to see your lil' frankensteins try (and fail) to kill a balrog in a custom battle, so I really encourage you to try and learn.
DCI: Last Alliance: Unit maker. Proud member of The Imperial House of Hader
Well, I expect Blood, tears and sweat
And joy once my little teletubby gets beaten by the balrog
I do not ask for screen shots, just a draft or sketch to drool a bit over
Is the map on page 6 from 2009 still valid? http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=347256&page=6
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Belive you ^^
Two last questions on one topic on my mind ATM then, from an old discussion you have had (and perhaps solved, quite to many pages to check).
Sons of Fëanor;
If Maehdros is lord of the house can you make Maglor the heir as he's a brother?
Will we get all of the sons of Fëanor or is there a limitation in amount of descendents?
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Yes, Maglor will start as the heir (heirs don't have to be sons).
Yes there is a hardcoded limit in children, can't have more than four. We had a conversation with Joris about how to solve this, and I remember he suggested we should have two Feanors in the family tree, so that all the sons can be included, and I thought that would look silly..Will we get all of the sons of Fëanor or is there a limitation in amount of descendents?
And because I still think that would look silly, I just thought of how to make it not look silly: we can simply use a second family tree (factions can have second separate invisible family trees, which take up the throne if the first family tree runs out of heirs.) The main family tree will include Maedhors, Maglor, Celegorm and Curufin (and his son Celebrimbor), and the second will include Caranthir and Amrod (Amras had actually died at Losgar, so there will only be 6 sons). So there will still be two Feanors, but one will be invisible, and all the sons are thus properly family members.