View Poll Results: Which should be the start date: 455, at the start of Dagor Bragollach, when all the Noldor princes were still alive and strong, or 468, when the Union of Maedhros was formed, the time of Húrin and Túrin, for a harder and closer to lore campaign?

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  • 455, start of Dagor Bragollach

    17 80.95%
  • 468, Union of Maedhros

    4 19.05%
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Thread: War of the Silmarils

  1. #1521
    Ellin Athinaios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Yeah well, you get my point.

  2. #1522

    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisofHolland View Post
    Glaurung would be a problem, unles alreadyded can hide an entire Balrog in his model (?).
    It is possible, but very complicated so there is no guarantee.

    I have few old ideas I need to test as well, that hopefully will allow larger units and animations for generals while keeping the rest of the general animations the same size. So Morgoth is going to be the same size as the Sauron model? If I were you I would lower their sizes, including the Balrog. Maybe around half the size. Morgoth may have chosen to depict himself as very large in his Dark Lord form, but Sauron and the Balrogs probably were not as large.
    Last edited by alreadyded; March 05, 2011 at 07:50 PM.

  3. #1523

    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    you could make balrogs man size and a general then make a trait that gives them like 10+ hitpoints? and then give them a bodygaurd so yea?

  4. #1524

    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by UmbraPhoenix View Post
    Just a few comments on the Lore. Gothmog is the high captain of angband, also, Sauron was Morgoths chief lieutenant, his authority above any of the other servants of Morgoth. And while Balrogs were certainly a terror on the battlefield, they are also corrupted maia spirits, meaning that they are quite suitable for command.
    I didn't say they weren't intelligent, I said they probably didn't care about commanding troops and owning lands, etc. Ungoliant for example only cares about devouring everything, NOTHING ELSE. So while she COULD do it, she wouldn't. She would just eat them all I guess. I would imagine the balrogs didn't really pay attention to the Orcs. They probably just stomped on them if they were in they way. Therefore they don't need to be generals, they can just be recruitable units.

    There is a way to prevent the faction from adopting new generals though, I did it in my mod for my creature factions. But I forgot how. When they do recruit them, they instantly die as if they never existed. With seven really tough balrog generals the rest of the armies can just use captains I think. That way we can win some battles at least . And be super scared of certain armies and have to wear them down over multiple battles. Much like in the First Age where a lot of the roving armies just had Orc captains and usually got slaughtered unless they really outnumber their foes, and when it was important Morgoth sent Glaurung or balrogs along.
    Last edited by alreadyded; March 06, 2011 at 02:37 AM.

  5. #1525
    Ellin Athinaios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by alreadyded View Post
    So Morgoth is going to be the same size as the Sauron model? If I were you I would lower their sizes, including the Balrog. Maybe around half the size. Morgoth may have chosen to depict himself as very large in his Dark Lord form, but Sauron and the Balrogs probably were not as large.
    Sauron in this mod should be man-sized, and the Balrogs could be something like troll-sized, if not dragon-sized (so Glaurung would fit too). But Morgoth should definitely be the same size as the Sauron model, don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by alreadyded View Post
    I didn't say they weren't intelligent, I said they probably didn't care about commanding troops and owning lands, etc. Ungoliant for example only cares about devouring everything, NOTHING ELSE. So while she COULD do it, she wouldn't. She would just eat them all I guess. I would imagine the balrogs didn't really pay attention to the Orcs. They probably just stomped on them if they were in they way. Therefore they don't need to be generals, they can just be recruitable units.
    I thought we went over this. Balrogs can't be just recruitable units, since they were powerful fallen Maiar, and since there were only 7 of them. And at least one of them (Gothmog) did care about commanding troops, and happens to be the faction heir, so he needs to be a general.

    Think of the Balrogs the same way as the Nazgul of TATW - the Nazgul didn't command troops either (except one of them, the Witch-king, and maybe also Khamul from Dol Guldur)

    There is a way to prevent the faction from adopting new generals though, I did it in my mod for my creature factions. But I forgot how. When they do recruit them, they instantly die as if they never existed.
    Oh yeah, I forgot about that! That happens when a faction doesn't have a unit asigned as general_unit (bodyguard) in EDU. Simple.

    With seven really tough balrog generals the rest of the armies can just use captains I think. That way we can win some battles at least . And be super scared of certain armies and have to wear them down over multiple battles. Much like in the First Age where a lot of the roving armies just had Orc captains and usually got slaughtered unless they really outnumber their foes, and when it was important Morgoth sent Glaurung or balrogs along.

  6. #1526

    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    I realize that you want balrog generals and it is believable, I was just speaking hypothetically as he misunderstood me. With only a few references to them who knows? You can get away with just about anything as none of us knows, or even the peeps in Middle-Earth knew what they were like. They probably wouldn't be as cool if we did. The whole mysterious 'thing.'

    I think Morgoth the same size as Sauron is good. The units will function much better with scaled down animations as well, so that is a bonus!

  7. #1527
    JorisofHolland's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellin Athinaios View Post
    Are you suggesting we should have man-sized Balrogs? Or at least troll-sized or something?
    They should tower over Men and Elves, so at least a head bigger, but giving them troll-guards and them being smaller would look weird. Probably troll-size is the best option.

    Sauron I can only think of as man-sized (according to how he is described), but Morgoth would have to be at least the same size as Sauron's model for TATW. He is a Vala, and he is described as literally towering above Fingolfin, and apparently Fingolfin was only able to wound Morgoth's foot (which probably means he couldn't reach higher), as it says that "Morgoth went ever halt of one foot after that day".
    As Glassakias pointed out, Fingolfin was down on the ground then, and Morgoth tried to step on him (which he did). Also, the Balrog at the bridge 'grew', maybe this was the same kind of 'illusion'?

    As for Beren cutting the Silmaril - he didn't have to climb, because the crown fell down and rolled on the floor, when Morgoth fell into slumber. ("the iron crown rolled echoing from his head.")
    Oops.

    Quote Originally Posted by alreadyded View Post
    I didn't say they weren't intelligent, I said they probably didn't care about commanding troops and owning lands, etc. Ungoliant for example only cares about devouring everything, NOTHING ELSE. So while she COULD do it, she wouldn't. She would just eat them all I guess. I would imagine the balrogs didn't really pay attention to the Orcs. They probably just stomped on them if they were in they way. Therefore they don't need to be generals, they can just be recruitable units.
    Apart from the fact that they can't be recruitable (no really, there's no mention of Maiar joining Morgoth in the First Age), in HoM-e there was made mention of Balrog captains leading legions of Orcs. So at least in the early stages of development, they were leaders. And then there's Gothmog, whom I believe to be a commander (don't have anything to prove it, though. Just a feeling).

    There is a way to prevent the faction from adopting new generals though, I did it in my mod for my creature factions. But I forgot how. When they do recruit them, they instantly die as if they never existed. With seven really tough balrog generals the rest of the armies can just use captains I think. That way we can win some battles at least . And be super scared of certain armies and have to wear them down over multiple battles. Much like in the First Age where a lot of the roving armies just had Orc captains and usually got slaughtered unless they really outnumber their foes, and when it was important Morgoth sent Glaurung or balrogs along.
    That seems good. In autocalc characters often survive, so the Balrogs will probably stay alive for very, very long. We might need to script some aid for the AI, though, if it runs out of Balrogs too soon. We'll see once we enter testing phase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellin Athinaios View Post
    Sauron in this mod should be man-sized, and the Balrogs could be something like troll-sized, if not dragon-sized (so Glaurung would fit too). But Morgoth should definitely be the same size as the Sauron model, don't you think?
    If it will work, why not?

    Oh yeah, I forgot about that! That happens when a faction doesn't have a unit asigned as general_unit (bodyguard) in EDU. Simple.
    I think we can make many people happy with this solution. Does either of you mind if I post that in some other places?

    Quote Originally Posted by alreadyded View Post
    I realize that you want balrog generals and it is believable, I was just speaking hypothetically as he misunderstood me. With only a few references to them who knows? You can get away with just about anything as none of us knows, or even the peeps in Middle-Earth knew what they were like. They probably wouldn't be as cool if we did. The whole mysterious 'thing.'
    Agreed. And it was a nice lore-argument.


    I think Morgoth the same size as Sauron is good. The units will function much better with scaled down animations as well, so that is a bonus!
    So you think it will work this way (?): troll sized Balrogs and a huge Morgoth, both as generals, and at least the Balrogs (perhaps Morgoth as well) with bodyguards.
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  8. #1528
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by alreadyded View Post
    I didn't say they weren't intelligent, I said they probably didn't care about commanding troops and owning lands, etc. (...) They probably just stomped on them if they were in they way. Therefore they don't need to be generals, they can just be recruitable units.
    Considering them as commanders of Morgorths orcs there are quite a few references (source essay http://lotrplaza.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=235254);
    Now these had sustained a terrible conflict in the Great Market to the east of the City, where a force of Orcs led by Balrogs came on them at unawares as they marched by a circuitous way to the fight about the gate.
    -HoME II: The Book of Lost Tales II, The Fall of Gondolin

    the Orcs went forth to rape and war,
    and Balrog captains marched before.
    -HoME III: The Lays of Beleriand, The Lay of Leithian

    Along that narrow way their march was strung, when it was ambushed by an outpost of Morgoth’s power; and a Balrog was their leader.
    -HoME IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth, The Quenta, §16

    But now Gothmog lord of Balrogs, captain of the hosts of Melko, took counsel and gathered all his things of iron that could coil themselves and above all of the obstacles before them.
    -HoME II: Book of Lost Tales II, The Fall of Gondolin

    Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, high-captain of Angband, was come
    -The Silmarillion, Of The Fifth Battle
    Still they most likely was so mighty and powerfull that any little orc who stood in their way would get trampled down (Just my feeling)


    Quote Originally Posted by JorisofHolland View Post
    They should tower over Men and Elves, so at least a head bigger, but giving them troll-guards and them being smaller would look weird. Probably troll-size is the best option.
    Sounds good

    As Glassakias pointed out, Fingolfin was down on the ground then, and Morgoth tried to step on him (which he did). Also, the Balrog at the bridge 'grew', maybe this was the same kind of 'illusion'?
    "The idea that the Balrog could become ‘a great height’ has often been used as evidence that Balrogs are, in fact, quite large. But it was illusion. Just as Gandalf demonstrates, while fighting the wolves that attacked the party on the western side of the Misty Mountains, the Balrog appears to be greater than it is. It is worth noting that the ‘darkness’, the aura of shadow, increases as the Balrog appears to become larger, as it was introduced in the same drafting that begat the idea that the Balrog ‘felt larger than it looked’. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that the Balrog gained height, unless one believes Gandalf did as well. And so Balrogs remain at the previously stated stature, somewhere around or just shy of six and a half feet tall." -the quoted essay

    Apart from the fact that they can't be recruitable (no really, there's no mention of Maiar joining Morgoth in the First Age), in HoM-e there was made mention of Balrog captains leading legions of Orcs. So at least in the early stages of development, they were leaders. And then there's Gothmog, whom I believe to be a commander (don't have anything to prove it, though. Just a feeling).
    See red quotes above


    So you think it will work this way (?): troll sized Balrogs and a huge Morgoth, both as generals, and at least the Balrogs (perhaps Morgoth as well) with bodyguards.
    True to lore, propably mighty in-game
    Last edited by Ngugi; March 06, 2011 at 11:22 AM.

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  9. #1529
    Ellin Athinaios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisofHolland View Post
    I think we can make many people happy with this solution. Does either of you mind if I post that in some other places?
    Go ahead, I learned that from Gigantus anyway.

  10. #1530
    JorisofHolland's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    "The idea that the Balrog could become ‘a great height’ has often been used as evidence that Balrogs are, in fact, quite large. But it was illusion. Just as Gandalf demonstrates, while fighting the wolves that attacked the party on the western side of the Misty Mountains, the Balrog appears to be greater than it is. It is worth noting that the ‘darkness’, the aura of shadow, increases as the Balrog appears to become larger, as it was introduced in the same drafting that begat the idea that the Balrog ‘felt larger than it looked’. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that the Balrog gained height, unless one believes Gandalf did as well. And so Balrogs remain at the previously stated stature, somewhere around or just shy of six and a half feet tall." -the quoted essay
    You already posted that, and I refered to it.

    I just remember there was trouble regarding the Sauron-model and siege battles, I don't remember what exactly. But we can just place Morgoth somewhere behind a settlement to fix that, if necessary.

    Oh, and before I forget: + rep to everyone. I've learned quite a lot during this discussion.
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  11. #1531

    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisofHolland View Post
    So you think it will work this way (?): troll sized Balrogs and a huge Morgoth, both as generals, and at least the Balrogs (perhaps Morgoth as well) with bodyguards.
    I have an idea that may allow that, if it works it would allow many generals of many different sizes. I haven't tested it yet though as it is all animation related... and I am sick of animations right now . Just remind me when you get everything set-up.

  12. #1532

    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisofHolland View Post
    I think we can make many people happy with this solution. Does either of you mind if I post that in some other places?
    I discovered it purely by accident as with most things , post it wherever you like.
    Last edited by alreadyded; March 06, 2011 at 11:59 PM.

  13. #1533

    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    I'm a big fan. Keep the good work up!

    Hope you remember Moroght can't exit Angband but you doubtlessely thought of that.^^

    Furthermore I'll have to say that so far, Gondolin might be a little too coloured.^^ Blue and green and red and violet and golden may be a little too much. Just saying.

  14. #1534

    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    @joris: the matter with sauron is that the game crashes in siege battles with his unit. something to do with the elephant thing i think.\

    @eryn: thanks for the support. morgoth wont be able to exit angbad, that's for sure. the colors of the houses of gondolin are the ones described by tolkien btw...

  15. #1535
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by JorisofHolland View Post
    You already posted that, and I refered to it.

    I just remember there was trouble regarding the Sauron-model and siege battles, I don't remember what exactly. But we can just place Morgoth somewhere behind a settlement to fix that, if necessary.

    Oh, and before I forget: + rep to everyone. I've learned quite a lot during this discussion.
    true true, my bad Should had looked closer

    Agree, great with such constructive discussions whom all could gain from


    * Do you have any campaign map yet to show, with regions and what regions each factions will have? Would be fun to watch.

    * Plan to dedicate the coming summer to learn modelling and/or skinning because one (read me) get quite jealous at people who can make true ideas and visons when one can not haha

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  16. #1536

    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Modding is stressful sometimes, yet very rewarding to see your lil' frankensteins try (and fail) to kill a balrog in a custom battle, so I really encourage you to try and learn.
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  17. #1537
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl of Memory View Post
    Modding is stressful sometimes, yet very rewarding to see your lil' frankensteins try (and fail) to kill a balrog in a custom battle, so I really encourage you to try and learn.
    Well, I expect Blood, tears and sweat
    And joy once my little teletubby gets beaten by the balrog

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    * Do you have any campaign map yet to show, with regions and what regions each factions will have? Would be fun to watch.
    I do not ask for screen shots, just a draft or sketch to drool a bit over
    Is the map on page 6 from 2009 still valid? http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=347256&page=6

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  18. #1538
    Ellin Athinaios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    I do not ask for screen shots, just a draft or sketch to drool a bit over
    Is the map on page 6 from 2009 still valid? http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=347256&page=6
    No. And there is no draft or sketch to show, I'm afraid. You'll have to wait and see the finished map. A lot of thought has been put into the regions, so you won't be disappointed.

  19. #1539
    Ngugi's Avatar TATW & Albion Local Mod
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ellin Athinaios View Post
    No. And there is no draft or sketch to show, I'm afraid. You'll have to wait and see the finished map. A lot of thought has been put into the regions, so you won't be disappointed.
    Belive you ^^

    Two last questions on one topic on my mind ATM then, from an old discussion you have had (and perhaps solved, quite to many pages to check).
    Sons of Fëanor;

    If Maehdros is lord of the house can you make Maglor the heir as he's a brother?

    Will we get all of the sons of Fëanor or is there a limitation in amount of descendents?

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  20. #1540
    Ellin Athinaios's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: War of the Silmarils - Preview of Gondolin!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngugi View Post
    If Maehdros is lord of the house can you make Maglor the heir as he's a brother?
    Yes, Maglor will start as the heir (heirs don't have to be sons).

    Will we get all of the sons of Fëanor or is there a limitation in amount of descendents?
    Yes there is a hardcoded limit in children, can't have more than four. We had a conversation with Joris about how to solve this, and I remember he suggested we should have two Feanors in the family tree, so that all the sons can be included, and I thought that would look silly..

    And because I still think that would look silly, I just thought of how to make it not look silly: we can simply use a second family tree (factions can have second separate invisible family trees, which take up the throne if the first family tree runs out of heirs.) The main family tree will include Maedhors, Maglor, Celegorm and Curufin (and his son Celebrimbor), and the second will include Caranthir and Amrod (Amras had actually died at Losgar, so there will only be 6 sons). So there will still be two Feanors, but one will be invisible, and all the sons are thus properly family members.
    Last edited by Ellin Athinaios; March 07, 2011 at 04:09 PM.

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