War of the Silmarils

[Ellin Athinaios]

Tolkien uses Eldar, not High Elves. TATW uses High Elves, but I don't remember seeing it anywhere in the Hobbit or LOTR. Maybe it says High Elves in the Silmarillion, but Chris Tolkien wrote that. Again, it is used in many different contexts and so can have many different meanings, depending on when you apply it.

Tolkien uses Eldar and High Elves, with different meanings (the ones me and Cleg explained in previous posts). The term 'High Elves' is not made up by Christopher. It is mentioned in the LotR, for instance when Frodo meets Gildor and his company, as Ngugi said above. Specifically after he hears their song, Frodo says: 'These are High Elves! They spoke the name of Elbereth!' (Elbereth is the name the High Elves used for Varda.)

'High Elves' is not used in different contexts, and it has only one meaning, which is: the Calaquendi, the "Elves of Light", those of the Eldar who lived in Aman and saw the Light of the Trees, as opposed to those who didn't, the Moriquendi (also called the Úmanyar, those of the Eldar who were "not of Aman", as the name says [opposite: Amanyar]).

Edit: Funny how people can argue so much about something fictional.

[Protestant Knight]

Edit: Funny how people can argue so much about something fictional.

It is funny, I just finished reading this on going debate and I bet that Tolkien never would have imagined that his work would have this effect on people and in there lives


SO anything new going on with the mod

[Earl of Memory]

Yes there are some news, but most fans will have a heart attack if they learn the truth! (...yes it's moar concept art )

[alreadyded]

So did only Hobbits refer to them as High Elves? Or did they call themselves that? I am not arguing, I am just saying they all have many different names in different times, and in different languages, contexts, and to different peoples. Tolkien just gave us too many options so it can all be very confusing to classify them properly, definetly not as simple as most peeps seem to think. We just have to do the best we can to understand, as with all things. I already learned a few new things from this discussion, I am sure I am not the only one. And since I want to change the Elven faction names in TATW, it is a useful discussion to me.

[Ellin Athinaios]

So did only Hobbits refer to them as High Elves? Or did they call themselves that?

No, not only Hobbits, and yes, they called themselves that. You won't find it used often in the LotR though simply because there were not many High Elves left in Middle-earth at that time.

I am not arguing, I am just saying they all have many different names in different times, and in different languages, contexts, and to different peoples. Tolkien just gave us too many options so it can all be very confusing to classify them properly, definetly not as simple as most peeps seem to think. We just have to do the best we can to understand, as with all things.

Well not really. Elves have very specific names in all times for everyone, mainly in three languages (Quenya, Sindarin, Common). This will make it simple to understand the classification of their divisions: http://www.glyphweb.com/ARDA/e/elves.html

(By the way, tolkien gateway isn't the best of sources. Of all the online tolkien sites, I only trust the encyclopedia of Arda, and sometimes wikipedia. Also, as a response to a comment you made earler - Chris Tolkien may have made a few mistakes, but I doubt anyone knows the work of his father better than him. )

I already learned a few new things from this discussion, I am sure I am not the only one. And since I want to change the Elven faction names in TATW, it is a useful discussion to me.

Yep, interesting discussion for me too.

About the Elven faction names, they are correct as they are in TATW right now. You could also use Wood-elves for the Silvan Elves. But if you were to separate the vanilla Elven factions, you could have Lindon and Rivendell/Imladris, and Lórien/Galadhrim and the Woodland Realm.

[Ngugi]

(...)
(By the way, tolkien gateway isn't the best of sources. Of all the online tolkien sites, I only trust the encyclopedia of Arda, and sometimes wikipedia. Also, as a response to a comment you made earler - Chris Tolkien may have made a few mistakes, but I doubt anyone knows the work of his father better than him. )
(...)

Could also recomend Tolkiens metaguide http://tolkien.slimy.com/

No, Christoper know his fathers work better then anyone most likely.

EDIT: took away my own argumentation; this links essay tells us more and better about the creation of the Silmarillion than I could
http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/External.html#SilmChanges

[UmbraPhoenix]

It is funny, I just finished reading this on going debate and I bet that Tolkien never would have imagined that his work would have this effect on people and in there lives

I'm not so sure about that. Tolkien was fascinated with mythology, and much of his work draws on the mythology of the ancient peoples of Europe. His goal was to create a mythology, and being an individual of great intelligence i am sure he gave at least some thought to the sort of discussions that a fully imagined mythology might produce.

[JorisofHolland]

I'm not so sure about that. Tolkien was fascinated with mythology, and much of his work draws on the mythology of the ancient peoples of Europe. His goal was to create a mythology, and being an individual of great intelligence i am sure he gave at least some thought to the sort of discussions that a fully imagined mythology might produce.

So it's a set-up, and we are all traped?

[glassakias]

So it's a set-up, and we are all traped?

no this is not the case, we must discuss it in order to decide

[Ngugi]

About factions:

Spain (Harad) -> People of Bor
Venice (Rhûn) -> People of Ulfang

How will these people be allied with the other factions? It's before Unnumbered tears, but we know Ulfang will be a traitor and that Bor will stay true to Fënors son's later on.

EDIT: Or will they just be neutral?
Cant recall they should been allied to eldar before the Union of maedhros in 468 and so fort. Into Beleriand the easterlings came the year after the campaign begins (463);
- will they be playable in campaign then?
- will they have the horde ability?

During the Nírnaeth Arnoediad they fought on the side of the Eldar and Edain, and after the treachery of Ulfang the sons of Bór slew Ulfast and Ulwarth, but were themselves wiped out together with all of their folk.

I will SO much play as Bórs people if possible

[Ellin Athinaios]

They will start already established in the campaign, for gameplay reasons (although having the horde ability could be interesting ). The people of Bor will start as allied with the Sons of Fëanor, the people of Ulfang will have perfect relations with Morgoth and bad with the Noldor (but probably no alliance with Morgoth from the start).

[Ngugi]

They will start already established in the campaign, for gameplay reasons (although having the horde ability could be interesting ).

Mm, just thought it could been a quite lore friendly way to let them start as two horde's in the Blue Mountains or East Beleriand.
Should be quite a few areas in East Beleriand, Estolad and sourroundings, for them to settle down in.
Could perhaps also give Ulfangs faction a better chanse to last since they quite soon risk to have a lot of enemy factions arround them, if allied with Morgoth.

[JorisofHolland]

Only problem would be, the AI created by those bastards at CA wouldn't settle anywhere.

[Ngugi]

Only problem would be, the AI created by those bastards at CA wouldn't settle anywhere.

Thats a set back for that idea, then

[JorisofHolland]

Thats a set back for that idea, then

Yeah, unfortunately it is. But the Easterling factions will be able to recruit vast hordes of reasonable quality levies from low-tier settlements (upgrading, AKA 'settling' will reduce availability), to give them something of a nomadic touch.

A mod is never late, nor is it early, it arrives precisely when programmers means to.

Not true, I know from personal experience. VoA couldn't be released because there was no one around to test the files.

[Ngugi]

Yeah, unfortunately it is. But the Easterling factions will be able to recruit vast hordes of reasonable quality levies from low-tier settlements (upgrading, AKA 'settling' will reduce availability), to give them something of a nomadic touch.


Not true, I know from personal experience. VoA couldn't be released because there was no one around to test the files.

Goes down to skinning then I suppose. Still longs to play them

Haha, belive you, it was just a quote of mine from another thread when people wrote that v3 of TATW would never come. Rather meant that before the programmers release a mod nobody will lay their hands on it (officialy)

[glassakias]

previewing the Sentinels of Neldoreth

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

they are elite AORs for Doriath, armed with longbows and two handed axes (and of course Earl's dagger, this picture doesn't feature it well)...

feedback appreciated

[Ngugi]

Wow, great! Shoulder bracers, clothes colors, the pattern of plants and the axe

Since it's no obvious armor anywhere else, the hood and the helmet combined look a bit wierd?
Should it be such a large "nose protection", seems to rather block view?

[Squeaks]

LOVELY Glassiekins! Excellent.

[Ellin Athinaios]

Since it's no obvious armor anywhere else, the hood and the helmet combined look a bit wierd?

He wears mail under the clothes - you can see it at some parts. And the hooded helm is for style too.

Should it be such a large "nose protection", seems to rather block view?

Good point, the noseguard could be made thinner.