War of the Silmarils

[Ellin Athinaios]

how are you going to do things like the zone of melian or elven immortality?
i mean, there are some engine limitations.

The same way these aspects were dealt with in TATW. The power of Galadriel protecting Lothlórien is similar -though not equal- to the Girdle of Melian, I think.

[Valandur]

It depends on what settlements you have.
I could think of 100 region names from the actual map. Though some places that aren't actually cities or don't mention any cities will have to become cities.

[JorisofHolland]

It depends on what settlements you have.
I could think of 100 region names from the actual map. Though some places that aren't actually cities or don't mention any cities will have to become cities.

That doesn't matter. We can make them small population

how are you going to do things like the zone of melian or elven immortality?
i mean, there are some engine limitations.
god, i wish i was a modder so i could help with this. i am already waiting it with anticipation

I have an idea, but I'm not certain it will work. For Doriath I was thinking of making just a few passages through the woods, so that the defender has an easier task. But the AI probably won't use it.

[Valandur]

Perhaps for Doriath make it that only certain heavy units can make it into the woods. Like the Carrocks in Vanilla M2TW which you use to cross the Atlantic. It can only be accessed by certain units, other than that, its a *no-go zone*

For the big cities, stuff that can reach like 30k population could be like -
Gondolin
Doriath
Vinyamar
Tol Sirion
Eglarest
Brithombar
Haven of Balar
Nargothrond
Eithel Sirion
Isle of Balar
North Mithrim
South Mithrim
Cirith Ninniach'
City of Angrod
City of Aegnor
Curufinya (modification of the name *Curufin*)
Celegormil (Modification of the name *Celegorm*)
Amon Ereb
Himring
Gelion
Helevorn
Belegost
Nogrod
Amon Ereb
And for Angband it could be like - Ruins of Utumno, Angband, Daedaloth, Lammoth, City of the Easterlings and Anfauglith Fort. Most of these are based on real locations but aren't actually called by that name or even exist as a major settlement.

I could think of maybe another 50-60 smaller settlements. And if I had a map I could mark them all.

[JorisofHolland]

Doriath should be Menegroth, I think?
At home I have saved an excellent map (at least good enough) but here at school internet is to slow to find it. Probably I'll post it here at 16:00. If you could mark the settlements on it and post some information about them, I think we can start on the map.
Edit: got it working. Hope the quality is good. http://earing.80port.net/images/maps...he%20North.jpg

[Ellin Athinaios]

Doriath should be Menegroth, I think?

Yes, Doriath is the region, Menegroth the settlement.

[Valandur]

Yeh I was meant to put Menegroth but accidently put down Doriath instead.
I'll check out the map and add some smaller settlements as well.

Thats a very accurate map and the quality is fine. Everything is already there and its a far better map than I could think of. But it would still need a few more places added to it so you don't have like 1 giant region in East Beleriand.

So what factions do you plan on making?

[glassakias]

so its girdle of melian...
damned greek translation

[JorisofHolland]

Damn the other translations as well. I only know it's name because it's on the (English) map.

Yeh I was meant to put Menegroth but accidently put down Doriath instead.
I'll check out the map and add some smaller settlements as well.

Thats a very accurate map and the quality is fine. Everything is already there and its a far better map than I could think of. But it would still need a few more places added to it so you don't have like 1 giant region in East Beleriand.

So what factions do you plan on making?

I've updated the first post a while ago, there is a faction list now.
+ rep for the region list.

[Ellin Athinaios]

I've updated the first post a while ago, there is a faction list now.

I just took a look at the faction list, won't the House of Bëor be included in the Edain?

Also I think House of Hador sounds better than Marach.

[Valandur]

Cultures:
Noldor
Sindar
Edain
Easterlings
Orcs/Creatures of Melkor

Perhaps the Easterlings and Orcs will be added together, to keep 'Invasions' (*crusades*) in game. Not very likely, as this leaves the people of Bor without culture.


Factions:
Noldor - House of Feänor
Pass of Aglon will be guarded by Celegrom, Caranthir and Curufin
Himring will be ruled by Maedhros, but Maglor will be a part of this faction, too.
Amrod & Amras in Estolad, south of their brother's realms and west of (what used to be) Dor-Caranthir

Noldor - House of Fingolfin
Hithlum, home of the High-King of the Noldor Fingolfin and his son Fingon
Gondolin, ruled by Turgon

Noldor - House of Finarfin
Nargothrond. I'm not sure if Finrod was still there, his brother Orodreth will be present anyway.

Sindar
The Kingdom of Doriath, Thingol (Elwë)
The Green Elves of Ossiriand (are they Sindar?)
Falathrim, led by Cirdan

Edain
The Haladin of Brethil (2d House of Edain)
The House of Marach, in Dor-lómin (Hitlhum) (3d House of Edain)

Easterlings (not sure about them yet)
Sons and People of Bor (loyal to Maedhros)
Sons and People of Ulfang the Black (disloyal to Caranthir, servant of Morgoth)

Orcs/Creatures of Morgoth
Morgoth, master of Angband
Sauron, Lord of Tol Sirion (Island of Wolfs)

______________________________________________________________
Using that for referance. ^^^
What time of the First Age will this be set in? Because if you want it to start at FA 1 then I'd make these changes.

House of Feanor - Celegorm and Curufin remain in Himlad guarding the pass of Aglon, remove Maglor to the Pass of Maglor in between Thargellion and Himring. Remove Caranthir to Helevorn in Thargellion and remove Amrod and Amras to Amon Ereb where they resided. You may want to add the people Bor to this faction as they were loyal to Maedhros during the Nirnaeth. The Sons of Feanor basically controlled most of East Beleriand so they would also be quite numerous.

House of Fingolfin - Fingolfin resides in Mithrim, Fingon resides in the north of Hithlum and Turgon resides in Gondolin, but you may also want Vinyamar under Fingolfin control as well. Also the Eithel Sirion will be part of their faction.

House of Finarfin - Finrod Felagund resides in Nargothrond, Orodreth at Tol Sirion and the Aegnor and Angrod on the northern slopes of Thargellion. Finrod basically controlled all of Beleriand so his faction would be quite numerous.

Sindar - The people of Ossiriand were part of the Nandor, a branch from the Teleri which means, yes, they would be Sindar. Thingol would control Doriath and Cirdan would be in chare of the Havens stretching from the Mouths of Sirion to Vinyamar. You may want to split these into two factions though because otherwise they'd dominate half the map.

Men of Edain - You may also consider splitting these into 3 factions because they are far apart.
Anyway, House of Hador living in Dor Lomin, House of Beor in Dorthonion and House of Haleth in Brethil. You may also want them to control Estolad as that was a large camping ground for the men when they first came from the east, some of them might still remain there.

Easterlings-
Just have the House of Ulfang living there. Maybe make them like an Emergent faction who start arriving in waves from over the Ered Luin.

Angband - They control Angband and most of the lands north of Hithlum. Give Sauron a made up fortress somewhere near Angband.

You may want to split up some of the factions like the Sindar and Edain. And have the Dwarves in the Ered Luin. And you might want to create a mythical Avari faction near that large forest near the south of the map.

[Ellin Athinaios]

Oh of course, the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost should also be included.

[Valandur]

Oh of course, the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost should also be included.

And I think they should also be two seperate factions.
There was little love between both of them and I read somewhere that they were both different races of Dwarves (Firebeards and Shortbeards iirc). So, Belegost could have the southern part of the mountains and Nogrod could have the north, and Mount Rerir.

Anyway, Its 3am I should be getting some sleep.
Goodnight all.

[Elphir of Dol Amroth]

There was little love between both of them

That is nowhere said, they were more likely allies and trading partners. The only thing we heard is that the Dwarves of Belegost tried to prevent (with words, not with fighting) those of Nogrod from attacking Menegroth.

I read somewhere that they were both different races of Dwarves (Firebeards and Shortbeards iirc).

Those of Nogrod are most likely Firebeards, those of Belegost were probably called Broadbeams.

So, Belegost could have the southern part of the mountains and Nogrod could have the north, and Mount Rerir.

Actually Belegost is north of Nogrod. And Mount Rerir and the surrounding area seemed to be under controll of Caranthir.

[JorisofHolland]

I just took a look at the faction list, won't the House of Bëor be included in the Edain?

They lived in Dorthonion, which was overrun in the Dagor Brachollach. Morgoth filled it with Easterlings (who I don't know much about).

Also I think House of Hador sounds better than Marach.

Done.

And I think they should also be two seperate factions.
There was little love between both of them and I read somewhere that they were both different races of Dwarves (Firebeards and Shortbeards iirc). So, Belegost could have the southern part of the mountains and Nogrod could have the north, and Mount Rerir.

I completly forgot about them.

What time of the First Age will this be set in?

I'm not sure yet about the year, but a few years before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad. I think 462 First Age, for several reasons:
1) Húrin is the lord of Dor-lómin and Túrin is already born.

2) Finrod Felagund is still alive, and his brother Oropher has already joined him (at least Tol Sirion was overrun by Sauron a few years before). I also have a few ideas on the quest of Beren and Luthien, I'll explain them below.

3) Easterlings 'control' Dorthonion, which enables another evil faction. Together with Sauron, Angband (Morgoth) and two other Easterling factions, that makes five faction to battle the good guys. I hope that's enough.

House of Feanor - Celegorm and Curufin remain in Himlad guarding the pass of Aglon, remove Maglor to the Pass of Maglor in between Thargellion and Himring. Remove Caranthir to Helevorn in Thargellion and remove Amrod and Amras to Amon Ereb where they resided. You may want to add the people Bor to this faction as they were loyal to Maedhros during the Nirnaeth. The Sons of Feanor basically controlled most of East Beleriand so they would also be quite numerous.

Maglor's Gap was conquered by Morgoth, I think Maglor joined Maedhros after that.

Dor Caranthir was overrun I think, but I'm not sure. If you are sure it wasn't, he can be put in there.

I'm thinking of the People of Bor, but I haven't made my mind up yet. Any suggestions are welcome.

House of Fingolfin - Fingolfin resides in Mithrim, Fingon resides in the north of Hithlum and Turgon resides in Gondolin, but you may also want Vinyamar under Fingolfin control as well. Also the Eithel Sirion will be part of their faction.

Vinyamar is in Nevrast? I was thinking of making it rebel, with only a few guards and lowest (400) population. I also have another idea, I'll explain below.
Fingolfin was already dead (his duel with Morgoth was just after the Dagor Bragollach).

House of Finarfin - Finrod Felagund resides in Nargothrond, Orodreth at Tol Sirion and the Aegnor and Angrod on the northern slopes of Thargellion. Finrod basically controlled all of Beleriand so his faction would be quite numerous.

Angrod and Aegnor were slain in the Dagor Bragollach.
Why did Finrod control all of Beleriand? I did not know the power of Nargothrond was that great.

Sindar - The people of Ossiriand were part of the Nandor, a branch from the Teleri which means, yes, they would be Sindar. Thingol would control Doriath and Cirdan would be in chare of the Havens stretching from the Mouths of Sirion to Vinyamar. You may want to split these into two factions though because otherwise they'd dominate half the map.

I wasn't sure about the Elves of Ossiriand, but if they're Nandor it's fine. I wasn't sure because they are described as "Green Elves" sometimes.

Doriath and the Falathrim are listed as seperate factions, or do I misunderstand you?

Men of Edain - You may also consider splitting these into 3 factions because they are far apart.
Anyway, House of Hador living in Dor Lomin, House of Beor in Dorthonion and House of Haleth in Brethil. You may also want them to control Estolad as that was a large camping ground for the men when they first came from the east, some of them might still remain there.

Wasn't Estolad a part of Amrod & Amras' realms? Other stuff I said already.

You may want to split up some of the factions like the Sindar and Edain. And have the Dwarves in the Ered Luin. And you might want to create a mythical Avari faction near that large forest near the south of the map.

Avari are a good idea, if we ever get that far I'll think of the again. Also, should both dwarven cities have different cultures (religion, not UI)? If they were different clans and had their own forefathers, should they?

The quest of Beren and Luthien.
I was thinking of a set of (scripted) yes/no events, for both Thingol and Finrod. Thingol would have the choice to be angry with Beren and lock away Luthien, or support them. (Perhaps he will get acces to a few units of men after that, probably not recruitable)
If the quest of the Silmaril was started by Thingol (or rather, by Beren), Finrod would have the choice to aid him in his quest. He will be sent of the map then, and it will be random whether or not those Sons of Feanor take over. They can be spawned as characters, fot he sake of gameplay this requires Oropher to be killed however. Finrod might return, but he might not as well. I'm not sure about the 'reward' for returning, if any.

Nevrast
Perhaps there should be advanced buildings, but those would be destroyed if an evil faction takes the settlement. If a human takes it, perhaps a few well-armoured units should be spawned (there were weapons and armour left in the place right? Or just one set for Tuor?)

Factions of the Edain.
Perhaps the Edain factions should be a part of the Elfs they served? This faction will have units of the respective house recruitable, and a larger pool in their homeland. Other good factions will have humans recruitable as well if they conquer that place, but only there (AoR). Probably a bad idea, but I've been thinking of it.

Edit: Elphir posted whilst I was posting

That is nowhere said, they were more likely allies and trading partners. The only thing we heard is that the Dwarves of Belegost tried to prevent (with words, not with fighting) those of Nogrod from attacking Menegroth.

Those of Nogrod are most likely Firebeards, those of Belegost were probably called Broadbeams.

Sounds like they better share the same culture, to make it easier to improve their relations? And they should be close allies, or not very close?

[Elphir of Dol Amroth]

They lived in Dorthonion, which was overrun in the Dagor Brachollach. Morgoth filled it with Easterlings (who I don't know much about).

As far as I know it was filled with Orcs and other creatures, but not Easterlings, at that time just after the Dagor Bragorlach the Easterlings of Ulfang were still considered to be loyal to the Elves.

Finrod Felagund is still alive, and his brother Oropher has already joined him (at least Tol Sirion was overrun by Sauron a few years before).

Oropher is the father of Thranduil, you must mean Orodreth who was Finrod's nephew btw, not his brother.

Maglor's Gap was conquered by Morgoth, I think Maglor joined Maedhros after that.

That's correct, but eventually those territories were regained for a while just before the Battle of the Unnumbered Tears.

Vinyamar is in Nevrast?

It it was the city from where Turgon ruled Nevrast for a while.

Why did Finrod control all of Beleriand? I did not know the power of Nargothrond was that great.

Not all of it, but a pretty big area, Nargothrond and allmost all of West-Beleriand, Minas Tirith and Dorthonion and Ladros as a fief.

Wasn't Estolad a part of Amrod & Amras' realms? Other stuff I said already.

It seems like it was yes, but at the time the Edain came they settled there and ruled themselves. Amrod and Amras probably hadn't enough Elves to populate their territoriums anyways.

Also, should both dwarven cities have different cultures. If they were different clans and had their own forefathers, should they?

No they shouldn't, Dwarves are pretty simular even if they were from different clans. The culture and religion slots you have are better spend on other factions.

Sounds like they better share the same culture, to make it easier to improve their relations? And they should be close allies, or not very close?

Yeah they should definately be close allies. I would even doubt it if it's necessary to split Nogrod and Belegost, unless you are making a DAC like mod of course with many factions. But if you do it TATW style with no more than 10 factions I think it's better to not split the Dwarves. Not only lore wise but also gameplay wise I because the Dwarves are located really close to each other which would limit each other expansions.

[Valandur]

Ok well if its after the Braggolach, Fingon is King in Hithlum/Mithrim, Hurin is Lord in Dor Lomin, The People of Beor have megred with those of Brethil and Dor-Lomin, Aegnor and Angrod are dead, Dorthonion is overrun with Orcs and Sauron controls it and Tol Sirion. Maglor's and both Curufin and Celegorm's land is overrun. Not sure about Caranthir but I think Thargellion was overrun. Finrod is still King in Nargothrond with his brother, Orodreth. Vinyamar was deserted during that time but some Grey Elves did live along the coast not far from it.

But, the Easterlings were still loyal to Maedhros during that time, Nogrod and Belegost are shown differently by Tolkien. Nogrod is shown as evil sort of while Belegost was shown as good. Nogrod attacked Doriath and slew King Thingol and that was portrayed as an evil deed while Belegost were the last army to route in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad out of Maedhros' host. But if they aren't one faction, they should be very close allies.

[JorisofHolland]

Oropher is the father of Thranduil, you must mean Orodreth who was Finrod's nephew btw, not his brother.

My bad. But I'm pretty sure Orodreth is the brother of Finrod. They are both sons of Finarfin as far as I know.

That's correct, but eventually those territories were regained for a while just before the Battle of the Unnumbered Tears.

Dor Caranthir as well?

Not all of it, but a pretty big area, Nargothrond and allmost all of West-Beleriand, Minas Tirith and Dorthonion and Ladros as a fief.

Ladros = Dor-lómin, right? Dorthonion and Tol Sirion were overrun by that time.

It seems like it was yes, but at the time the Edain came they settled there and ruled themselves. Amrod and Amras probably hadn't enough Elves to populate their territoriums anyways.

Enough men for a new faction? And to which house should it belong?

Yeah they should definately be close allies. I would even doubt it if it's necessary to split Nogrod and Belegost, unless you are making a DAC like mod of course with many factions. But if you do it TATW style with no more than 10 factions I think it's better to not split the Dwarves. Not only lore wise but also gameplay wise I because the Dwarves are located really close to each other which would limit each other expansions.

Then it depends on the number of regions we have in the mountains. If there is enough room for two factions, it's a good idea to split them up IMHO.

Ok well if its after the Braggolach, Fingon is King in Hithlum/Mithrim, Hurin is Lord in Dor Lomin, The People of Beor have megred with those of Brethil and Dor-Lomin, Aegnor and Angrod are dead, Dorthonion is overrun with Orcs and Sauron controls it and Tol Sirion. Maglor's and both Curufin and Celegorm's land is overrun. Not sure about Caranthir but I think Thargellion was overrun. Finrod is still King in Nargothrond with his brother, Orodreth. Vinyamar was deserted during that time but some Grey Elves did live along the coast not far from it.

But, the Easterlings were still loyal to Maedhros during that time, Nogrod and Belegost are shown differently by Tolkien. Nogrod is shown as evil sort of while Belegost was shown as good. Nogrod attacked Doriath and slew King Thingol and that was portrayed as an evil deed while Belegost were the last army to route in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad out of Maedhros' host. But if they aren't one faction, they should be very close allies.

How many regions can we make in the Blue Mountains?

[Valandur]

My bad. But I'm pretty sure Orodreth is the brother of Finrod. They are both sons of Finarfin as far as I know.


Dor Caranthir as well?


Ladros = Dor-lómin, right? Dorthonion and Tol Sirion were overrun by that time.


Enough men for a new faction? And to which house should it belong?


Then it depends on the number of regions we have in the mountains. If there is enough room for two factions, it's a good idea to split them up IMHO.

How many regions can we make in the Blue Mountains?

Nogrod and Belegost for all I know.
Belegost is called Gabilgathol, Mickleburg and Khazdul so maybe we can use them as names for other Dwarven settlements around the Blue Mountains.

Nogrod was called Tumhulzahar so maybe that can count as another Dwarven settlement.


I never knew some Dwarves remained in the ruins of Belegost when it was destroyed during the destruction of Beleriand.

[JorisofHolland]

I don't think we can make them two seperate factions, then. They will function better as one.