The Stainless Steel Historical Characters Project (SSHCP) - Merged into SSMAP!

[hippacrocafish]

Fair Prince: I'd like to ask you something, I use Stainless Steel 6.1 so I still have the Order of the Knights Templar, would you be able to tell me what the French equivalent 'Grandmaster' and 'Councillor' would be? I could just use a translator, but I don't know if the translation would be historically correct.

[Fair Prince]

Hey, I've already contacted a French guy here in TWC about the matter, and once I got the translations, I'll post them for you.
Meanwhile, I found this interesting article about the Templar ranks - it says the two most important member after the Grand Master was either the Seneschal or the Marshal (depending on your viewpont).
So the heir should also be selected from these two, I guess.

EDIT: here are the French translations:
Templar leader: Grand Maître (Grand Master).
Templar heir: either Sénéchal (Seneschal) or Prévôt (Marshal) - personally, I'd suggest using the latter.

(Thanks to loet66 for his help!)

[hippacrocafish]

Hey, I've already contacted a French guy here in TWC about the matter, and once I got the translations, I'll post them for you.
Meanwhile, I found this interesting article about the Templar ranks - it says the two most important member after the Grand Master was either the Seneschal or the Marshal (depending on your viewpont).
So the heir should also be selected from these two, I guess.

Please check back later for the translations.

Thanks for your help.

I'll wait for those translations.

[PerXX]

This is looking pretty nice!
As for the Danish/Norwegian "Konge" title, it should be Kong instead, depending on it's use;
A king = en konge
King Knud = Kong Knud

[Fair Prince]

@hippacrocafish
I've got the French translations, see my previous post.

@PerXX
Thanks mate, I'll correct that soon.
A rep point goes to you!

[Taxandrius]

This looks like a great mod!
Downloading atm!

Maybe a little remark on the French roster.You included Thierry d'Alsace (great! ), but I think it would be better to use his Dietsch (predecessor of Dutch) name, which would have been more common: Diederik van de Elzas, grandson of Robrecht the Frisian, father of Filps van de Elzas (Filips of Alsace) who brought the current Flemish crest to the region:



Thanks in advance!

[Fair Prince]

You can only download the titles for SS 6.2, for the complete mod you have to wait a little longer.

As for Thierry/Diederik, I chose the French equivalent simply because of the deficiency of the game's name giving system. Should I put 'Diederik' and 'van de Elzas' in the French name list, then other characters (who aren't from Flanders) might spawn with these names, and that would look rather lame.
Every faction has its own language, and I think it's better to stick to that.

Thank for the suggestion, anyway.

[Taxandrius]

Oh sorry, I didn't know that. In that case, it is indeed better so.

[Fair Prince]

UPDATE 2010-06-16

- Most importantly, I added two new columns to the first table for the retinues: every leader and heir is gonna start with at least one ancillary (powerful figures might even get two), aside from the crown - I already put some ideas of mine in the list, but more to come
- Some new retinues will be designed exclusively for this mod: part of them will be standard, transferable ancillaries, while the others shall be unique, non-transferable ones (e.g. Theotonius for Afonso)
- Tweaked the HRE roster a bit (took out the Babenbergs from the family tree)
- Tweaked the Crusader States roster and settlements (added Kerak and some new counts/lords, but not all may make the final cut)
- And of course, added a couple of generals to the second list as well

[Fair Prince]

I added a new poll to the thread.
It concerns two notable historical monarchs, namely Frederick I Barbarossa of the HRE and Louis VII the Younger of France. I'm pretty much undecided on how should I put them in the game, that's why I'm asking for your opinion, as (hopefully) it's gonna be you who will play with this mod.

Before you read the pros and cons, bear in mind that Louis was born in 1120, while Barbarossa in 1122 - so they were 10 and 8 years old in 1130, respectively. There are two options here: either they're raised to 14 and get specific traits and epithets, or keep their correct ages.
You can read my arguments for both below.

Why should they start as 14:
- Both can have pre-designed traits and retinues right from the start, otherwise they'll get random ones when coming of age
- Both can have their historical epithets from the start (though it's questionable Frederick had a nice red beard at 14, but I guess we can overlook this fact for now ), otherwise they won't have them
- Their presence gives more power to their respective factions

Why they shouldn't:
- Louis' 4 and Barbarossa's 6 years would be a rather significant adjustment, compared to the other generals (this damages the mod's accuracy a bit)
- Though they start as generals, nothing guarantees they will eventually become faction leaders
- Both France and the HRE already have plenty of historical characters in their ranks (as you can see it in my second table)

Please vote if you plan to use this mod in the future.
Thanks!

[Seether]

I don't think adjusting the ages is too much of a problem. Afterall, in order to correctly do some family trees, I had to slightly adjust ages so that heirs (especially if they were only children) could actually take over when their father died. So I'd say include them, but that's just my opinion.

[szelbisz]

But that would ruin the historical part of this mod. It would have to be renamed to SSSHCP (Stainless Steel Semi-Historical Characters Project). You have to answer one question do you want to make it as historicaly accurate as possible ? What good will it do to have Frederick and Louis older ? What traits will you give them ? Will you give them some about how cool they are going to be in future ? Also i would remove the polish heirs nickname "the Exile", such nicknames are given by historians (he got it because he had to run from Poland after a war with his brothers, and that was long after the starting date of his mod).

[Seether]

There has to be some leeway taken. Ages have to be adjusted because this game does not recognize 8 year old Kings or heirs, so they have to be bumped up to 14 just so the historical family tree can stay that way. Including Barbarossa does not ruin the game or seriously break it in any way. I think you are exaggerating a bit too much.

[Caesar Clivus]

In regards to Barbarossa and Louis, you may want to take a look at this thread: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=296296

[Fair Prince]

@Seether & szelbisz
Now that's exactly why I made this poll. You have completely different views on the matter and both of you have good arguments. Both options serve historical accuracy, albeit in a different way.
The first sacrifices the age-accuracy for the trait-accuracy. Both were charismatic leaders (this could be nicely represented in the game through their traits), and one could think it'd be a pity to see them spawn with random traits because of those 4-6 years.
The second is also a viable option, it's more suitable for the perfectionists. But I'd like to stress here that not every character's age can be correctly set, simply because I couldn't find any data (aside from their names) about them - and if fictional ages will be used in their case, maybe some adjustment could be justified for Louis and Barbarossa as well.

And szelbisz, you don't have to worry about the historical epithets: I'm gonna choose them carefully, of course not all of them will be in the mod. I'll try to avoid using unreasonable epithets, like 'the Exile' you mentioned. Wladislaw went exile only after 1130, so he obviously shouldn't start with that sobriquet. Subsequently, Magnus of Norway won't start as 'the Blind' (he was blinded only in 1135), Alfonso VII of León won't start as 'the Emperor' (crowned in 1135), and also Afonso of Portugal won't be named as 'the Conqueror' either (he went on to conquer later).

@Caesar Clivus
Thanks for the link, I'll check it.
Later I'll give my feedback here about that solution.

[szelbisz]

There has to be some leeway taken. Ages have to be adjusted because this game does not recognize 8 year old Kings or heirs, so they have to be bumped up to 14 just so the historical family tree can stay that way. Including Barbarossa does not ruin the game or seriously break it in any way. I think you are exaggerating a bit too much.

Barbarossa became a king when he was around 30 years old, in 1152 and you want to make him a king when he is 4. Whos exagerating ? I will only point one thing from the first post of this topic:

... Every starting faction leader, heir, princess, general and even bishop will be revised to give the users as much authenticity as possible...

And for me this mod was about giving players the most accurate starting characters. What happens with them next is calculated by the players actions and the game engine's randomness.

[Seether]

I didn't say anything about making him a king, so you're point is moot. What the discussion, and poll, is about is bumping his age to 14 so that he can be included with correct traits and ancillaries as opposed to it being random when he comes of age. My point, if you even read it, was that to include certain characters who fill specific roles (such as heirs) sometimes need their ages increased to 14 just to be an heir, even if they were only 8 historically. That is, of course, the scripting that CC pointed out is not followed.

[Fair Prince]

Barbarossa became a king when he was around 30 years old, in 1152 and you want to make him a king when he is 4. Whos exagerating ? I will only point one thing from the first post of this topic:

And for me this mod was about giving players the most accurate starting characters. What happens with them next is calculated by the players actions and the game engine's randomness.

I think I get your point now - you're possibly afraid of seeing him in the mod as an overly powerful, yet only 14 years old general.
Well, don't be. I can assure you (supposing the first option wins the poll) he obviously won't start with, say, 7 command and 10 authority points, just because he went on to become a mighty emperor later in the century. No, that won't be the case (it wouldn't make sense, either) - instead he's gonna start as a highly talented youngster with promising, but not exaggerated traits. That way he could also have his Barbarossa epithet from the beginning.

But what happens to him thereafter depends only on the player and the AI, like you said.

[szelbisz]

I think I get your point now - you're possibly afraid of seeing him in the mod as an overly powerful, yet only 14 years old general.
Well, don't be. I can assure you (supposing the first option wins the poll) he obviously won't start with, say, 7 command and 10 authority points, just because he went on to become a mighty emperor later in the century. No, that won't be the case (it wouldn't make sense, either) - instead he's gonna start as a highly talented youngster with promising, but not exaggerated traits. That way he could also have his Barbarossa epithet from the beginning.

Well no, you didnt get my point at all when it comes to traits etc i have confidence you will do as best as you can.
For me the problem is that even though you dont know it yet you are going off from the thing i mentioned before:

... Every starting faction leader, heir, princess, general and even bishop will be revised to give the users as much authenticity as possible...

So for me adjusting ages just to have some chars in the game is making it semi-historical as i stated before. One question (also to Seether): would you also consider adjusting their age if the start date would be 5, 10, 15 years before ?

PS. Just realised i might be trolling lol

[Fair Prince]

So for me adjusting ages just to have some chars in the game is making it semi-historical as i stated before. One question (also to Seether): would you also consider adjusting their age if the start date would be 5, 10, 15 years before ?

No, I wouldn't, that would be too excessive.
But since it's 'only' about 4-6 years, gaming reasons should also be taken into consideration: maybe the mod could profit more from the proposed adjustments than without them.
It only depends on whether you think those extra years are reasonable in this case or not - or in other words, whether the trait/epithet-accuracy should be favoured instead of the age-accuracy.