Who deserves to not be admited in the EU?

[PointOfViewGun]

Poland doesn't have quite as bad a freedom of speech problem as Turkey, as we have discussed but you typically deny.

Why are you making such stupid claims for no reason?
1) I did not say that Turkey is better than Poland in every way as it's not. I just said that they're similar in many aspects. Freedom of speech is not the only requirement for EU.
2) Where did I deny anything about Poland having more freedom of speech? I don't even remember being part of a discussion that involved comparing Poland and Turkey other than the very short one that I had with Thorn77.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Why are you making such stupid claims for no reason?

What a depressingly predictable response.

Freedom of speech is not the only requirement for EU.

It's a pretty ing big one.

[PointOfViewGun]

What a depressingly predictable response.
It's a pretty ing big one.

Obviously you're aware of the stupidity of your claim to say that I denied something that I actually never discussed. I thought you were better than this.

[intel]

Take the example of Poland. It's economically and socially very similar to Turkey. Do you think it would be in EU if the majority of its population was Muslims?

Obviously you are not aware of the stupidity of what you've just said.

[PointOfViewGun]

Obviously you are not aware of the stupidity of what you've just said.

Good for you.

[intel]

Good for you.

Then please tell me how is Poland similiar to Turkey

economically and socially

??

Care to prove your stupid point?

I don't have anything against Turkey, but these two countries simply aren't like each other for god's sake.

[Armenum]

Turkey has many problems like Cyprus, Kurds' rights, and instability with government.

In the Caucuses you have several frozen conflicts and 3 de-facto independent nations.

Before anything these issues have to be solved. After that, countries should continue with human rights, democratic reforms. Then we'll see what the stage is then.

[PointOfViewGun]

Then please tell me how is Poland similiar to Turkey
??
Care to prove your stupid point?
I don't have anything against Turkey, but these two countries simply aren't like each other for god's sake.

I don't understand why you're offended by such a comparison but here it goes:

Their nominal GDPs are similar.
They have comparable population sizes.
They're relatively religious.

Turkey has many problems like Cyprus, Kurds' rights, and instability with government.

In the Caucuses you have several frozen conflicts and 3 de-facto independent nations.

Before anything these issues have to be solved. After that, countries should continue with human rights, democratic reforms. Then we'll see what the stage is then.

You should really refrain from commenting on issues concerning Turkish state as you usually unable to pursue your own arguments.

Tell us why Armenia should be in EU or not should be.

[intel]

I don't understand why you're offended by such a comparison but here it goes:

I am not offended. But that is just plain silly, not revelant to truth.

Their nominal GDPs are similar.

Turkey's nominal GDP (PPP) per capita is similiar to Romania or Belarus. THere's 4-5 thousand dollars gap between Poland and Turkey. Total GDP of Turkey reaches 900 billions of $, in Poland-666 billions.

They have comparable population sizes.

Turkey has almost two times bigger population than Poland...

They're relatively religious.

In that aspect comparing Poland to Turkey is false as well.

[PointOfViewGun]

I am not offended. But that is just plain silly, not revelant to truth.

It's a simple comparison. Calm down.

Turkey's nominal GDP (PPP) per capita is similiar to Romania or Belarus. THere's 4-5 thousand dollars gap between Poland and Turkey. Total GDP of Turkey reaches 900 billions of $, in Poland-666 billions.

The gap is not that much compared to France or Spain. In that regard Poland and Turkey has similar nominal GDPs with comparable population size. Romania or Belarus are tiny compared to Turkey and Poland and people usually dismiss using them for comparison for their size differences.

Turkey has almost two times bigger population than Poland...

The population of Poland is still sizable and population densities are similar as Turkey may be populated twice of Poland but Poland is half of Turkey.

In that aspect comparing Poland to Turkey is false as well.

Nope. The attendance of church/mosque is also similar. Actually Poland has a much higher percentage of people going to the church regularly than Turks going to mosque regularly.

[Stavroforos]

Just a question, and this might be because maybe I did geography lessons a long while ago and maybe things have changed since then.

But since when were Georgia, Armenia, and the like considered Europe?

[removeduser_487563287433]

Obviously you're aware of the stupidity of your claim to say that I denied something that I actually never discussed. I thought you were better than this.

We've had this discussion before, and that was indeed the line you took. In particular I remember a memorable moment when you said it was okay to prosecute people for "insulting Turkishness".

[PointOfViewGun]

We've had this discussion before, and that was indeed the line you took. In particular I remember a memorable moment when you said it was okay to prosecute people for "insulting Turkishness".

Then I would like you to get me a link to such a post by me rather than making such stupid claims. There is no way I would say that prosecuting people for insulting Turkishness is okay when I have been advocating the elimination of the Article 301. What I might have said is that people with no expertise on a certain public matter should not make a public announcement on the issue just to sell books.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Then I would like you to get me a link to such a post by me rather than making such stupid claims. There is no way I would say that prosecuting people for insulting Turkishness is okay when I have been advocating the elimination of the Article 301. What I might have said is that people with no expertise on a certain public matter should not make a public announcement on the issue just to sell books.

There's plenty of examples of you angrily defending the law, especially when the Armenian Genocide is brought up. In a particular favourite of mine you expressed glee at the prospect of Turks who defended, in your words, "foul claims", being prosecuted. One of your other favourite defenses of the law is to claim nobody has ever been prosecuted under it or that there are the exact same laws in Germany, a claim you never managed to back up. Another good one was where you claimed the law was made up by the media. Oh, and of course, the defense of you mindlessly flaming people, in particular them being stupid.

Anybody who calls my opinions stupid must be a very clever person indeed. Except for the problem that it seems that what you interpret as "stupid" turns out to be somebody who criticised Turkey somehow.

Funny that.

What people seems to keep ignoring is that same law exist in some European countries too, for example Germany.

They were tried but most of the cases were dropped.
You should give some specific examples to be credible.

That term "insulting Turkishness" I think derived by the media to name the whole issue.

I hope you're aware that no person have ever been convicted of "denying the so-called Armenian Genocide" or "insulting Turkishness. Yet I know if I go to a European country I know I have to serve jail time if I said my previous sentence there. There is no free speech problem in Turkey.

But these are just my stupid opinions right? My stupid opinion that Turkey limits freedom of speech too much to be a viable candidate for the EU? I wonder if we can find anybody who shares my stupid opinion?

Nope, it's not lying. It's a limitation of freedom of speech. A double standard perhaps. If you say it's a lie and it would be punished then I can equally claim that anything said about the Turkish government is a lie. Lies should be punished right?

Oh. You. Funny that.

[intel]

It's a simple comparison. Calm down.

No need for that.

The gap is not that much compared to France or Spain. In that regard Poland and Turkey has similar nominal GDPs

Well, the difference here is 1/3 of Turkish GDP PPP per capita. For developed economies like French or Spanish few thousands aren't really a deal, but for less developed, such as Polish or Turkey, they are.

Also, I advice you to use PPP GDPs. They reflect the actual strenght of economy much better than nominal GDPs.

The population of Poland is still sizable and population densities are similar as Turkey may be populated twice of Poland but Poland is half of Turkey.

Yes, but that puts Turkey in entirely different size class, with the likes of Germany and Iran in terms of population. Size does matter, especially when one's size is twice as much as the other one's.

Nope. The attendance of church/mosque is also similar. Actually Poland has a much higher percentage of people going to the church regularly than Turks going to mosque regularly.

50% compared to Turkish 60%= not higher.
Furthermore, Poland is much more secular than Turkey is (and doesn't need army to keep the secularisation going ). Religion has lesser influence on politics of Poland, compared to the situation in Turkish state.

[Stavroforos]

I can't say I've ever noticed religion playing a bigger role in the running of the Turkish state than I have religions playing a role in any Western state, to be honest.

[Armenum]

Just a question, and this might be because maybe I did geography lessons a long while ago and maybe things have changed since then.

But since when were Georgia, Armenia, and the like considered Europe?

Ever since they were part of Council of Europe and part of EU's Eastern Partnership. And also promised associate memberships by EU very soon.

[Stavroforos]

Yes...but why? I mean, you guys aren't in Europe.

[PointOfViewGun]

There's plenty of examples of you angrily defending the law, especially when the Armenian Genocide is brought up. In a particular favourite of mine you expressed glee at the prospect of Turks who defended, in your words, "foul claims", being prosecuted. One of your other favourite defenses of the law is to claim nobody has ever been prosecuted under it or that there are the exact same laws in Germany, a claim you never managed to back up. Another good one was where you claimed the law was made up by the media. Oh, and of course, the defense of you mindlessly flaming people, in particular them being stupid.

Anybody who calls my opinions stupid must be a very clever person indeed. Except for the problem that it seems that what you interpret as "stupid" turns out to be somebody who criticised Turkey somehow.

Funny that.

But these are just my stupid opinions right? My stupid opinion that Turkey limits freedom of speech too much to be a viable candidate for the EU? I wonder if we can find anybody who shares my stupid opinion?

Oh. You. Funny that.

How pathetic your pasts are becoming Ferrets54. I used to respect you.

1) I have also put the link from the German Penal Code of the article that is very similar to Article 301 from Turkish Penal Code. How funny that you've failed to see that. People were behaving like such a law was special only for Turkey when in fact a very modern nation of Europe had a very similar law.

http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/StGB.htm#90a
There you go. Section 90a:

(1) Whoever publicly, in a meeting or through the dissemination of writings (Section 11 subsection (3)):
1. insults or maliciously maligns the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands or its constitutional order; or
2. disparages the colors, flag, coat of arms or the anthem of the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands,
shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
(2) Whoever removes, destroys, damages, renders unusable or unrecognizable, or commits insulting mischief upon a publicly displayed flag of the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands or a national emblem installed by a public authority of the Federal Republic of Germany or one of its Lands shall be similarly punished. An attempt shall be punishable.
(3) The punishment shall be imprisonment for not more than five years or a fine if the perpetrator by the act intentionally gives support to efforts against the continued existence of the Federal Republic of Germany or against its constitutional principles.

2) There have been no cases where people were sent to jail. I have searched for any kind of report but all of the cases were either dismissed by the judge or even when a sentence was given it was postponed never to be carried out. So how am I supposed to show that something didn't happened? Since the Article 301 was revised early in 2008 there have been almost no cases. Before 2008 there were over 60 cases and almost every single one of them were from the same lawyer.

3) I began to doubt your ability to read and comprehend arguments. If you actually read that post you quote last saying that I agree with you when I'm actually not, you'd see to what I was responding to and that I was simply pointing out the hypocrisy of some people.

4) You have yet to show me the discussion we had on comparing Poland and Turkey.

5) I have never defended the law but defended against the claim that it forbids people to talk about the genocide claims when in fact just last week I watched on national television a debate on the issue between an Armenian and a Turk. I have yet to hear him being jailed, killed or oppressed in any way as so many people claimed in these forum.

I would never think that you'd humiliate yourself so blatantly.

Well, the difference here is 1/3 of Turkish GDP PPP per capita. For developed economies like French or Spanish few thousands aren't really a deal, but for less developed, such as Polish or Turkey, they are.

There are many economical indexes that we can look at. You're right at GDP PPP being the better of nominal and PPP GDPs as PPP is adjusted for prices. Yes, there is an important difference but still compared to Spain or France it's negligible. After when a state is accepted to EU, they do not compare the candidates between them but between the important states of EU. So comparing Polands GDP to France doesn't yield a much different picture than comparing Turkeys GDP to France.

Yes, but that puts Turkey in entirely different size class, with the likes of Germany and Iran in terms of population. Size does matter, especially when one's size is twice as much as the other one's.

I know addition of Turkey to EU would shake lots of political plays in EU due to population size but my initial question was that with all the technical specs of Poland from 2004 would it still be accepted to EU if it was a majorly Muslim nation?

50% compared to Turkish 60%= not higher.
Furthermore, Poland is much more secularized than Turkey is. Religion has much lesser influence on politics of Poland, compared to the situation in Turkish state.

It's actually 25% for Turkey.
How is Poland more secularized?
Abortion in Poland is illegal for "on request" cases.

[Armenum]

Yes...but why? I mean, you guys aren't in Europe.

Well that's decision that EU made so go ask them. Situation is similar to Cyprus which is not in Europe geographically, but is politically europe for cultural reasons. Georgia & Armenia are Caucasian countries with ancient Caucasian cultures. However they've had a decent amount of contact with Europe and European culture and now they see themselves as in the European spheres. So both the people of Georgia and Armenia want to be in the European spheres and the EU countries/government accept and encourage this.