[HISTORICAL ISSUE] - Rascia

[Hrobatos]

well, for serbian historians on this forum, and i know i can find you here...

how did loked Rascian army in first half of 10 century, lets say around 920?

how manny cavalary, infantry, what gear did they used? was gear alredy heavily influenced by ERE or it was "slavic"?

any help will be apreciated... and +rep, but be objective please

its for my mod for Mount&Blade, mod thread can be find here

[NikeBG]

I can't help you with the Rascian research, but I want to correct one mistake from your thread - there were no Cumans in the early Xth century, especially in this area. What you're going for are probably the Pechenegs.

Otherwise, good luck with the mod! M&B's my favourite game, so...

[Hrobatos]

Pechanenges werent here much more either, even do your right, ill change to Pechanenges
I added them, Normans and other mercenaries as i thought it will be... better than with those reguaar mercenaries

[NikeBG]

Well, the Pechenegs weren't in the region (Western Balkans), but were in the time and were used by Simeon the Great as allies and mercs.

[Sarmatian]

Typically Slavic - textile or leather armour and helmets, wooden shields, emphasis on spears, javelins and axes, little or no metal armour.

Mostly infantry, very little cavalry, usually only slightly better equipped but still mostly leather armour and spears/javelins. Metal armour, when it was present, was usually loot from the Romans.

So, you should go for lightly armoured, lightly armed, quick and agile troops, very good at ambushing and fighting in forested areas.

[Hrobatos]

alright, thanks
+rep as i said

[matija191]

Serbian soldiers 12th-13th century:



And description of serbian tactics:

[Hrobatos]

too late, first half of 10 century if what im looking... before heavy byzantine influences

[Son of Fire]

@Hrobatos...
Check the South Slavs and Avar thread... as we are talking about early South Slavs...

@matija191...
Is that from the other Ian Heath book?
I have been hunting for that for ages!

[phoenix[illusion]]

it's from the book Byzantine Armies (1118-1461) i think

[Son of Fire]

Never heard of it... is it on PDF?
I am always looking for new references...

*Wait a tick... if by the Osprey book, I have that, and those pics are not in it...
Damn... now I am curious...

[phoenix[illusion]]

oh, sry, it's not. i've made a mistake. anyways, look at those pics that i've sent you, they are from the same book (matko sent me that pics)

[Son of Fire]

I am on it...
Now I just have to get WinRAR...

[matija191]

@Hrobatos...
Check the South Slavs and Avar thread... as we are talking about early South Slavs...

@matija191...
Is that from the other Ian Heath book?
I have been hunting for that for ages!

yes it is
if you want i can give you links for ian heaths books in pdf

[Hrobatos]

yeah, post link here please

[Son of Fire]

Seconded!

It might also help put to rest some of the debates we have had here as well...

[NikeBG]

Indeed, do post. I've been itching for more of those ever since I saw the one about the Late Middle Ages here.

[matija191]

http://www.filefactory.com/file/b083...e_Crusades_pdf
http://www.4shared.com/file/20444565...al_Europe.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/20448616...Heath1984.html

[Son of Fire]

Ok… this is my understanding from the books, and the discussions had...


In the “Dark Ages”… Serbs and Croats were still fairly similar.
Though as time progressed, the Croats had a larger Western European (due to Hungary and Venice)influence, while the Serbs had a larger Byzantine influence. Though the Serbian Coastal Duchies still had a significant Western influence due to Venice, as did the Northern regions…
The smaller Slavic tribes, as well as indigenous one was either becoming absorbed by, or affiliated with the larger more powerful Serbs and Croats… though at this point, there are still some varying degrees, but most have already been fully assimilated (by 920 is it?).

The core of the military was still the military retinue of the Zupans or Knez… which is though never given a name in South Slavic sources, can be assumed to be Druzina (Praetorians). These would be backed by a levy.
The bow was being used quite a bit by this point, with lots of archers fielded, though the javelin still had a place… as well as the Slav axe… though now the sword was no long a weapon only for the elite warriors, becoming more common place.

Heath states that the Druzina fought with Avar and Alan influence, that being sword (sabre) bow and lance.
This could be entirely possible… though I would state that I believe that the bow was secondary to the lance in warfare among them… as it seems though there is reference to Serbs using bows, it seems the preferred the lance, and kept the bow for supplementary combat. And as for the sabre… I think that Serbs favoured the straight doubled edged sword over the sabre… we know they used sabres later on with certainty, and they resembled the Byzantine paramerion… but at this earlier point… I can’t really say for sure… I would think they are a bit rarer…
Armour would be a mail corselet, or perhaps some lamellar. And of course, a shield.
But again, there was no uniform appearance… the better and more affluent the warrior, the better his kit.

The infantry would have started to be gathering a decent kit by this point… though there would still be large portions without armour. But I doubt that all would be un-armoured at this point…
Spears and other polearms, large shields, bows, javelins, knives and axes would be the most common weapons… but the more affluent warriors would have a corselet and helm with a sword possibly.

They seemed to excel at night fighting and ambushes, though at this later period, would still place armies on a field… usually drawn into 3 battles. With archers in the fore, only to retreat behind the cavalry once things got hairy…

*They also had access to siege technology at this point as well...


Hope it helped…

[Hrobatos]

i know how Croats looked, what weapons they used, in what number etc...

i wanted to find more detailed informations about Serbs

and about western influence to croatia:

from Venice: nothing, coastal cities were more influenced by Byzantine,
Hungary back then didint looked western, and Croats were part of western influence to Hungary

western style of warfare as we know it, is Frankish warfare, and was brought to Croats by Franks
when Croats arrived, they were allies to Franks, they were part of frankish army that went against Avars
they fought as frankish allies against Byzantine,
and ( much later) dux(knez) Domagoj used his fleet to raise a blocade of port of Bari(southern Italy) while Franks( and Croats) attacked it from land, in 871

in this period manny frankish spears and swords were found, later weapons were copies from these frankish(those "slavic" were used as well),
Croats looked like any other western/central european army, they inherited frankish battle style

later when Turks arrive, Croats will adopt, and Hussars and iregular infantry will be created, which made Croats famous in Europe as soldiers

Emirate of Bari and its fall in 871


when comes to the equipment army used, your mostly right, but your talking to general for Slavs in some parts
ill make a preview on armies soon...
and names of units, ill need to asko someone for a advice