Examples of(IMO) poor CAI, thoughts?

[Koolhan37]

[Please don't put this in the bug thread or whatnot, as it is more a topic I'd like some "General Discussion" on, thanks ]

So far I'm not too impressed with NTW's CAI. This is just one example, but perhaps the most glaring and obvious.

I'll just set the situation up with a picture here and ask some questions along the way.

It's turn 22, almost two years into the Coalition campaign as Great Britain. I am playing on Very Hard.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The first things I did, naturally, were to consolidate my navies, concentrate on trade nodes/trade, build up infrastructure, and trade for techs. This is pretty natural for an opening to any campaign, with the first two being especially important as GB.

With my navy already being fairly superior to any other nation, I proceeded to go hunting, mopping up the entire French navy with minimal losses, the mostly trade-orientated navy of the Batavian Republic, and all of the Spanish navy north of Gibraltar. This took me basically the first 10 turns, and then I just parked two sizable navies along the French/Spanish coast, with random smaller frigates hovering around my trade ships. I suppose this shouldn't be that much of a surprise for GB, but I was a little astounded at the lack of any meaningful resistance(even Villeneuve's sizable fleet is not a match for Nelson's original). None of these nation's navies have recovered in the least(I'm on turn 22 now). I lost Gibraltar after two Spanish sieges, but that is to be expected.

Now raking in a hefty chunk of change through trade alone(8k a turn with low taxes), I'm able to finance just about anything, but focus almost solely on infrastructure, trade, and a few frigates here and there.

Around turn 10 I get a mission to take Rennes for a 2K reward. Okay, it looks completely undefended(I have a spy in the French capital, naturally). So I muster up England's home forces(the starting forces), to make a full stack with three Generals, ol' Arthur at the top.

What follows is a horrendous display of passivity and unpreparedness on the part of the French AI.

With their navy gone one would think they'd look to defend the coast?

Anyways, I take Rennes with a quick naval invasion and liberate it, creating a buffer that I rest in for a turn, waiting to see what the French will do. Well, they do nothing. Ok, so I then take Caen. They send a small force of about 5 units to raid one of the towns. I wipe it out easily, and then backtrack along the coast with most of the army(leaving a general and some foot in Caen, working on militia), heading towards Bordeaux. I proceed to take Bordeaux, Toulouse, and Marseille without firing a shot. Still nothing from the French as I churn out militia in each. I then take Torino with a small fight(they had a couple units of line so wouldn't surrender outright), and liberate it to create another buffer. Marseille is busy turning out regular troops which are making their way along to my new coastal acquisitions, and Arthur is about to strike up the middle to Reims and Paris.

This is "Very Hard". The AI has been pathetically passive, not even reacting to regions being taken and armies on the move. They have the armies to beat me too, which is even more annoying. Has anyone seen anything similar to this? I mean, this is horrid. It's not even...anything, it's like I'm not even playing the game(a contradiction, obviously, but you get the idea).

[garudamon11]

france did the same in my austrian campaign , i basically sent a full stack and i looted all their regions except for paris and i saw no resistance , their armies were either hovering in germany or protecting paris , i left the regions to rebels and then i restarted the campaign cause it was boring

[Rhazes]

France is scripted they pretty much Ignore you until you take Paris.

About Gibralter. If you don't mind some advice on holding it. What I do take the Army from England and ship them down on the first turn. Immediatly start building linemen in Gibralter. Make militia if you have to because they are better than nothing. When you get sieged wait it out until they attack you. Sometimes they will starve you out just reload back a turn and attack them instead. When your defending you will have defense so the key here is Urban Combat. Use the buildings and defenses to funnel troops into crossfires. The buildings will protect you from Artillery fire. Your Artillery if placed right when be devestating to the overwhelming force. Urban combat is tons of fun and very dangerous for any attacker to deal with. Just keep building linemen because you will eventually start facing 2 stacks back to back. I have so much fun in Gibralter its one of my favorite maps.

[tonedog]

2 examples for me would be a slightly passive naval CAI and that the AI doesnt attack using multiple stacks supporting each. they normally send them in piecemeal at one at a time no matter how many stakcs you have to defend with.

[Modestus]

Well playing as France (VH Grand Campaign) sometimes a slight change to what provinces you take first can kick start the minors into a lot of activity.

However what I tend to see most is a CAI that does not make any use of its forces, Spain (player France) seems to be scripted not to take Gibraltar which they could easily and Great Britain wants to land at Hanover.

Lots of AI armies marching around with apparently no goals, stuck in movement loops going back and forth seemingly without reason. The CAI can be effective at times but this feels more like an accident rather than any real coordinated attack or defence.

Overall a simplified map with basic instructions some scripted and a structure that leaves one wondering does the CAI have any real purpose besides wandering around the place and bumping into enemies.

Slightly better than ETW but I put this down to the increased number of provinces so its really only an illusion.

[Koolhan37]

About Gibralter. If you don't mind some advice on holding it.....

I don't mind advice at all!

I believe I did something similar to that, but I just didn't have enough time I think(sometimes Spain never takes Gibraltar, other times it rushes fairly early). I was able to build four groups of line before the first attack, which I beat back(It was a general, one cav, four line, and one 6 lber arty, no big deal). But then they attacked with a full stack the next turn, the damage my units had taken wasn't really replenished and a new line unit was a turn away. So I guess I'll just have to take it back, maybe Spain will actually throw an army or two in the way!

[Koolhan37]

.

However what I tend to see most is a CAI that does not make any use of its forces.....

Lots of AI armies marching around with apparently no goals, stuck in movement loops going back and forth seemingly without reason. The CAI can be effective at times but this feels more like an accident rather than any real coordinated attack or defence.

Overall a simplified map with basic instructions some scripted and a structure that leaves one wondering does the CAI have any real purpose besides wandering around the place and bumping into enemies.

Slightly better than ETW but I put this down to the increased number of provinces so its really only an illusion.

Completely agree with you here from what I've seen. In my current GB game, there are four good sized French armies(that I can see) just sitting/marching around near the Austrian border, without actually doing anything or coming back to defend. Even one of those armies would have slowed me down considerably. Not to mention the full stack in Paris just sitting there(will it stay there the whole game I wonder?).

One of my favorite MTW2 mods(Deus Lo Vult) added in a script to auto-garrison AI cities with some troops "from the countryside" if it were sieged. I know we have the town watch, or whatever, but it is ineffective(you can just force them to surrender) and unless the CAI actually defends regions on a regular basis, and not just the Capital, then we may need a mod like that.

It's strange, when I was fighting in Napoleon's European campaign, the only nation that seemed to effectively defend its cities was Russia, but by then it was too late for the rest of Europe. It at least forced me to think out my attacks!

[QuinZeEskimo]

I decided to start an Irish Campaign for St Pattys day, and I managed to liberate Scotland and capture wales for use as a forward base. GB currently has about 2 1/2 stacks trying to take out my raiding parties in england, and then 2 full stacks on ships. One of the navy/stacks was outside Dublin for 10 turns, the other one is sitting in the channel......

[Koolhan37]

I decided to start an Irish Campaign for St Pattys day, and I managed to liberate Scotland and capture wales for use as a forward base. GB currently has about 2 1/2 stacks trying to take out my raiding parties in england, and then 2 full stacks on ships. One of the navy/stacks was outside Dublin for 10 turns, the other one is sitting in the channel......

I've noticed ships with troops sitting around forever too. In my VH French campaign, there were two full stacks of troops on ships sitting right near Rennes(does the AI get that objective too?) for about 20-25 turns!

They finally invaded and took Rennes briefly but I was always sorta ready for it with some sizable armies in Caen and Paris, so they got wiped out in a few turns, including Wellesely(sp?).

Later on I saw the same thing, a stack of troops on a couple ships just sitting off the coast for several turns. This time I just went and sank it, several thousand troops into the murky deep.

I think at this point the AI is way too focused on objectives or triggers, and just doesn't know what to do without those(perhaps because there are too few?). I mean, CA should look at games like the upcoming Civ5 if they want to see what a good AI design is. In the previews they talk about hierarchy of needs, and layering different objectives into an AI "thought" process, and they used a similar system in Civ4, which at times has a devastatingly competent AI(it still gets bonuses on harder levels, but will always put up a fight!).

[Redbeard]

Based on my experience - when the scripting ends, the AI can get ferocious. In my French campaign, it was only after I took Moscow that the Russians started bringing the hurt to me and I was shocked at their agressiveness (attacking three of my provinces at once when previously Prussia, Austria and Russia mostly milled about and performed scarce counterattacks). Also, the Minors often put up a helluva fight.

Another issue that helps is if AI has not that big a front. Sweden can be a pain both to late game France and Russia because it only has St. Petersburg to attack, and is then very aggressive at taking the states bordering the Baltic sea (but will surprisingly not move South towards Moscow).

[Jihada]

I went totally bankrupt in a Russia campaign and couldn't recover because Denmark had built a huge fleet which blocked my trade at many points when I went to war with Sweden.They even landed an army to attack Istanbul which I'd captured some time back. I was beaten and had to give up after so many turns of bankruptcy and enemies attacking me on land as well.

[Roslolian]

So..a good AI would be able to predict you perfectly?

Several times, an AI army has marched into lands I didn't have garrisoned. Took me by surprise, mostly because I was focusing on other fronts. So...I mean, does that mean I'm a bad AI?

I think the expectations are unrealistic and somewhat unreasonable.

[Selahedîn]

I think the expectations are unrealistic and somewhat unreasonable.

I think the problem is that when some of us compare the Total War CAI to that of "similar" games - like Europa Universalis III or Rise of Prussia - we can't help but feel a little sad.

[Roslolian]

EU III is such a bad comparison though. All the maneuvering and all that is done automatically. There's no AI monitoring troops disposition; it's mathematically calculated in movement rates and the like.

We're not talking about having an army in a region, as is the case with EU III. We're talking about having an army in a specific location relative to points of interest. EU III doesn't have to make that judgment.

[Selahedîn]

EU III is such a bad comparison though.

Bad comparison or not, EUIII - especially with a decent mod, like Magnus Mundi - provides a real challenge. Total War games, even on Very Hard, and even with the best of mods, do not.

[HappyGoodVibes]

The most fight the AI puts up with me in Napoleon's European campaign is when i take a capital. Austria and Prussia really hurt with this because they spawn a ton of Jagers in a rebellion and wreck my forces with their superior range. Otherwise its just one random AI army (usually not a full stack) that is wandering around in my regions raiding villages.
Also i have never seen a British army land on my coast, even though i have nothing there to protect it, instead i see them way off by Hungary/Ottoman Empire/Russia area.
The most active AI faction i have seen is Denmark. I allied them and now they send armies out taking the fight to my enemies, which is pretty cool.