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Thread: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

  1. #1
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    Default Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    I was always thinking that many things we now perceive as Ottoman or etc

    may also was Byzantine .

    Example.

    The parameroion



    Topkapi Palace Byzantine swords?



    Mameluk sword used by usa marines




    Georgian swords

  2. #2

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    so crescent has a meaning for byzantines too then..interesting..
    "Surely Allah enjoins to do justice and to adopt good behavior and to give help to relatives-neighours(whoever you can reach), and forbids shameful acts, evil deeds and oppressive attitude. He exhorts you, so that you may be mindful." Qur'an; 16:90 (this is the verse that is recited every friday in sermons during the Friday Prayer rituals)
    "Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment." Prophet Muhammad

  3. #3

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    The crescent with a star was an ancient symbol of the city of Byzantium. It has been found on ancient coins. The crescent on its own was associated with the goddess Artemis, or just the moon. I think it's a fairly global symbol.

    When is that first picture from, Jo?



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    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    St-Mercurius circa 1295, Macedonia

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    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Hmm it seems trying to discuss about byzantine hardware is nt so cool

    I guess i should tried something about pilum or gladius or Medieval knights or etc

    it is hard theme not for pop History.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    It's only been an hour...



  7. #7
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    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    If I'm not mistaken, the Byzantines adopted the paramenion from their contact with steppe peoples. (Alans, Avars, Turkomans, khazars etc. ) I don't think it was an independent Byzantine invention.
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    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Interesting. Tang Dynasty of China, which was roughly same time as early Byzantium, used curved sword as main weapon too due to their constant conflict with nomades.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, the Byzantines adopted the paramenion from their contact with steppe peoples. (Alans, Avars, Turkomans, khazars etc. ) I don't think it was an independent Byzantine invention.
    its persian invention i guess(derived from shamshir). it also looks like dao(mongol/chinese saber).
    Last edited by maerd2003; March 18, 2010 at 01:23 PM.
    "Surely Allah enjoins to do justice and to adopt good behavior and to give help to relatives-neighours(whoever you can reach), and forbids shameful acts, evil deeds and oppressive attitude. He exhorts you, so that you may be mindful." Qur'an; 16:90 (this is the verse that is recited every friday in sermons during the Friday Prayer rituals)
    "Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, curtails their rights, burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment." Prophet Muhammad

  10. #10

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Hmm interesting but doesn't the crescent and star is goes all way back to Sumerians and Phonicians ?
    Last edited by HeroSK; March 18, 2010 at 01:37 PM.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sipahi View Post
    Hmm interesting but don't the crescent and star is goes all way back to Sumerians and Phonicians ?
    There were a number of civilizations used crescent and star as their symbol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  12. #12

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Yes, the crescent, star and sun disk were common Sumerian symbols, since they corresponded to three of their main gods.



  13. #13

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    Interesting. Tang Dynasty of China, which was roughly same time as early Byzantium, used curved sword as main weapon too due to their constant conflict with nomades.
    I think there is a practical reason behind it as well. A curved sword is easier to slash alongside the charging motion of a horse.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Quote Originally Posted by Argeus the Paladin View Post
    I think there is a practical reason behind it as well. A curved sword is easier to slash alongside the charging motion of a horse.
    Yes, and in fact large number of Tang soldiers on northern frontier were nomadic people, not surprised they chose their original weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  15. #15

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    We're commonly told that curved sabers were preferred on horseback or in combat because you could slash better with them. I have to disagree. When you are riding a horse at full gallop and you strike someone in the face, back or chest, little will it matter if the blade is curved or not, that person is dead. I think the real advantage of a saber is that you can use your free hand to press against the flat end of the saber and have more control in close quarter combat. The curve conforms better with the natural curve of the body.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    I tend to agree with the opinion that on the horseback if you have a saber you can use it mostly to slash not to thrust, so the curved shape it's beter. Because there is a distance between a horseman and his opponent (on horse or on foot) you can't use the thrust movement, also you don't have enough stability on saddle to make a thrust.

    For thrust horseman used long weapons like lances.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Nowone noticed that the Saint wears a kazaka armour
    in greek you know what kazaka means - vest καζακα

    cloth in combine with chainmail

  18. #18

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    The easiest way to distinguish between an Ottoman kilij and other types of curved swords is the weight distribution. Most traditional kilij-type weapons are heavily weighted at the tip. For once wiki has a useful bit of information:


    Even earlier Turco-Mongol swords show this kind of weighting, which is possibly a Chinese influence. The idea here is that Turco-Mongol peoples took Chinese swords and merely lightened them to use them on horseback, as well as requiring fewer raw materials to produce. It's still mostly speculation, though, and some speculate that the influence was in the reverse direction (i.e., from Turco-Mongol peoples to the Chinese).
    Last edited by Crimson Scythe; March 19, 2010 at 06:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Scythe View Post
    The easiest way to distinguish between an Ottoman kilij and other types of curved swords is the weight distribution. Most traditional kilij-type weapons are heavily weighted at the tip. For once wiki has a useful bit of information:


    Even earlier Turco-Mongol swords show this kind of weighting, which is possibly a Chinese influence. The idea here is that Turco-Mongol peoples took Chinese swords and merely lightened them to use them on horseback, as well as requiring fewer raw materials to produce. It's still mostly speculation, though, and some speculate that the influence was in the reverse direction (i.e., from Turco-Mongol peoples to the Chinese).
    Yes this is a generall thought that i have about non settled nomads

  20. #20

    Default Re: Α Βυζαντιν σορδ A byzantine sword...

    Quote Originally Posted by jo the greek View Post
    Yes this is a generall thought that i have about non settled nomads
    If you want to find Greek originated Turkish swords; check "yataghan".
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