True Line of Sight in Total War Games

[TheDude]

As much as I enjoy playing ETW, NTW and all other TW games, I cant help but wish that there was true line of sight in the series. In ETW and NTW Artillery can fire over hills, through thick woods and many times fire into a ridge or hill in front of them being completely useless. And there are countless times when you think you placed a unit on top of a ridge only too see them shoot the ground instead of the advancing enemy battalion.
How much better and awesome would this game be if there was a line of sight option, or way of showing it in game a la Sid Meier's Gettysburg. That game had it right with the line of sight, artillery had a button you could push to see what the unit could see from its own eye level and everything else was greyed out to show that it was out of sight.
What do you guys think of this, does the Total War series need a line of sight button or a visual realtime depiction of LoS in game or is the current system fine?
I think ETW and NTW would be 10 times better if you could see what your units could see and if forests actually hindered artillery fire through them.

[Canuckian]

I was thinking thing just never posted it on this board. Yes it would be a welcome addition. It could even be used by the BAI for better arty deployments.

[Lord Nova]

CA's going to have to use LOS in some way for future total war games. I'm just glad we finally got topography on the mini-map.

[daniu]

I was thinking thing just never posted it on this board.

Don't worry, others did oftentimes

CA's going to have to use LOS in some way for future total war games.

I was coming to the same conclusion lately.
Up to, say, M2TW, the series has pretty much constantly evolved at least in terms of campaign gameplay; battle gameplay all but stayed the same.
I guess the naval battles in ETW could be considered a breath of fresh air (YMMV, but staying on topic), but true line of sight is the logical next step for land battles; it's so obvious it hurts.

Battles will play very, very differently and I'm sure not everybody will like it.
Also, there will be a lot of complaints about the AI not being able to cope.

[Kaap]

How much better and awesome would this game be if there was a line of sight option, or way of showing it in game a la Sid Meier's Gettysburg. That game had it right with the line of sight, artillery had a button you could push to see what the unit could see from its own eye level and everything else was greyed out to show that it was out of sight.

Funny you mention Sid Meier's Gettysburg. It's what? 11/12 years old now, but I have yet to find a game that can hook me so badly, with the same simple, fast but quite realistic gameplay with battles in campaign mode supported by cutscenes. And a highly moddable backend. Regiments, brigades, divisions, corps, it had it all. Imho that game was so revolutionary for its days.

Aww man I miss those days.

[♔DeusVult!♔]

I agree, TW desperately needs a line of sight. The lack of one is somewhat forgivable for the sword, lance, and bow eras, but for a 17th, 18th, and 19th century game, line of sight is crucial. I mean, entire battles were fought and won/lost based upon the knowledge, or lack of knowledge, of the other army's positions and local strengths. Sticking with the Gettysburg and Civil War theme brought up, Lee used to have single brigades or divisions run up and down in one place to give the illusion of many, many more men. In TW we can just scroll over in god mode and see that one half strength unit is running in circles. With proper line of sight, this would not be so clear.

I also think that with Line of Sight, TW needs to evolve the 20 unit cap. I want to be able to field an entire Army Corps on a large battlefield, and have to feel out the enemy (the true use of skirmishers).

[Petrov]

God i get this so much!

[♔DoomBunny666♔]

A tactical manouvre minimap before the battle, sort of in a Birth of America style, before actual realtime, might be a good addition as well...

[Lord Nova]

A tactical manouvre minimap before the battle, sort of in a Birth of America style, before actual realtime, might be a good addition as well...

Yeah that would help. The way CA explained that in the past was that your Generals and staff already did all the logistical work before the battle and picked the best ground possible which is a nice way of saying "Don't worry about all that, just fight". The thing is terrain is much more important now in gunpowder ages that it would be nice to have some way of decieving the enemy and play a game of position before the battle begins.

[Mathias]

It would certainly be alot more realistic. The main problem with no line of sight is the howitzers; they are way to accurate when firing over hills now. Quite incredible how they manage to shoot straight at something they cannot even see. It should be more like: "The enemy is somewhere behind that hill, so just bomb the area behind that hill".

[♔DoomBunny666♔]

Sort of like in Combat Mission, you could get like sound contact, unrecognized infantry, unrecognized armour, etc...

[Lord Nova]

Sort of like in Combat Mission, you could get like sound contact, unrecognized infantry, unrecognized armour, etc...

Boy would that be something if Total war turns into Combat Mission with a campaign map. I remember one battle in Barbarosa to Berlin where my men misidentified a king tiger tank as a tiger tank, imagine the horror when my Stalin tanks and T34-85s were decimated trying to rush it and watching every shell richochet off the thing.

Sadly the only thing I think CM and TW share is lackluster AI.

[♔DoomBunny666♔]

Not as bad as charging 15 shermans at a Panther to find its a King Tiger...

[The Juggernaut]

True LoS would be awesome in Total War. I don't understand why they gave us the red fields of fire if the only thing they tell us is range. Those should account for terrain as well, so we could easily see what we can shoot at.

[Godagesil]

Hey guys, its not a problem if you put the arty on the Military Crest of the hill, which is the forward slope just over the crest towards the enemy. I get down on a grunt's eye view to make sure I have a clear line of sight to my intended target, and to be sure that there are no defilade approaches to my line. Sounds like some of us have a case of Bird's-Eye-itis and are blaming it on the game. I find it frustrating that I can't get the arty to fire at targets screened by trees, the exact opposite of what you say you see.

[Graphic]

I agree with this thread. LoS done exactly like World in Conflict would be just right. Then you could form ambushes without forests like you should be able too. There also should be a hotkey to show individual unit's line of sight (also like WiC) to make sure they're not going to be shooting into a lump of earth, as well as a hotkey to highlight the topography on the map itself (the minimap is a large step forward). I spend way too much time in deployment mode scanning the horizon 2 feet from the ground looking for unobstructed ground to place arty and infantry.

[Godagesil]

I think the the game needs fog of war that masks any unit that has not been unmasked by being observed by enemy troops or light cavalry.

It would force the players to use units as they were originally intended. e.g. light cavarly and light infantry as screens allowing you to maneuver unseen. A few victory conditions or victory objectives would also help, forcing you to defend or attack to achieve the goals else lose. Case in point, Borodino. Did Napoleon win or lose? A tactical pyhrric victory, a strategic loss. So in that scenario, in order to win the player would have to retain the field and inflict a certain level of casualties on the defender to win a victory. Merely replicating Napoleon's empty victory should not do it.

[Godagesil]

Can you turn off the mini jump map? That might remove some of the god like powers and force us to play more like a real time commander of the day, without an omnicient presence on the battlefield. You could still scroll to your units, but it takes time and would limit what you can see of the enemy.

[torda]

Agree, that would be usefully. I've had problems to fight on little hills many times my line infantry shot the hill instead of enemy line.

[Hans Schormmer]

Great post +rep.

I was thinking the exact thing. For example, having the visible area a bit lighter - and invisible are bit darker with units placed or operating there not visible for the player. This solely would ad a whole new layer to the gameplay, making scouting a necessary part of ones tactics, and more importantly what OP says - better unit controll (not shooting a ridge ) Also make thick forest shadow the units right behind it.