suggestions

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Till 439 Magitri Militum Gallias was Litorious, when he killed himself and Aetius army of 60k huns outside of tolouse because of his own arrrogance. There was no MM of gaul until after Aetius' death. And in 436 aetius slaughtered the entire burgundian army with his buceliarii, and in 437 Attila came around and slaughtered the whole tribe. Then Aetius resettled them to a "safer" and smaller territory. The Burgundians learned not to mess with the romans. and it also made the other tribes back down for quite a while.
Syagrius was aedigius' sucessor in 464 unitl 486 when the DoS was wiped out.

[Aethelstan]

Thanks for input, I´m not too informed about this, but "60k huns" ???

[Riothamus]

Till 439 Magitri Militum Gallias was Litorious, when he killed himself and Aetius army of 60k huns outside of tolouse because of his own arrrogance. There was no MM of gaul until after Aetius' death. And in 436 aetius slaughtered the entire burgundian army with his buceliarii, and in 437 Attila came around and slaughtered the whole tribe. Then Aetius resettled them to a "safer" and smaller territory. The Burgundians learned not to mess with the romans. and it also made the other tribes back down for quite a while.
Syagrius was aedigius' sucessor in 464 unitl 486 when the DoS was wiped out.

Aetius, please take a bit more time with your posts. They are very generalized, posted as fact, and sometimes misleading. Try and be careful when making your arguments to back up your points somewhat..for instance Sygarius may not have taking control of the realm as you say in 464AD but more likely it was a little later than that..if anything its highly conjectural...

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

fixed

[VirIlluster]

huns were no good at sieging at all, its the same concept as the chinese who buoilt the great wall vs mongols, why did it work? because u cant carry a horse over the wall, steppe peoples fought in the open, and had minimal to none knowledge of siege warfare. and litorius, who saw his chance at rising above aetius, grasped the opportunity with both hands, and tried to wipe out all the goths for good. at the final day before the battle, priests came over to litorius and try to reason with him, but he, like the huns was pagan and despised arian ways. so what happened was he attacked the walls, after a good days fighting, tribal reinforcements of about a few k come to gothic aid, outflanking the huns, and even though they werent many, huns were exhausted by the battle, and easily died from outside preassure and as goths sallied forth in one final desparate push. litorius was later carried throughout the city with people throwing stones, he was tied to a pole and people started throwing things at him, none of the romans threw any stones.... anyways litorius either died right there, or was later humiliated some more, and beheaded, or they pured gold down his throat.
whew, i rarely type so much.
oh and one more thing i agree about romans in illyria, julius nepos should be faction leader, also take off any caesar and augustus titles for any renegade roman factions, as the augustus and caesar descriptions dont seem to fit.
also, eastern empire should have a few geenrals who hold the patrician titles, in the west there was only one holding the position.
also, veteran roman mercanaries should be able to be recruited, as the remaining forces which of course werent many, joined up with odaacer when he defeated roman general orestes.
also, it would be nice to leave roman buildings in now barbarian cities but not providing any bonuses, you know such as the colloseum which still stands today.
Office of Consul should also be available in ERM.
to be honest though , After The west dies, its pretty boring not being able to relieve the struggles of western empire as odoacer looses in 493 to the goths who make their own kingdom.

so maybe implementing a few renegate roman factions as aetius proposed isnt such a bad idea.

okay so i wrote alot bleh, but yeah i hope you get my point

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I'd like to know your source for the battle of tolosa, also, the DoS and the Romano-Maurish kingdoms did exist. They were WRE rump states with the Romano-Mauri lasting until Justinian's takeover of the state in africa in 533.

[FliegerAD]

Thanks for your input it is good to see other peoples interested in this period! I hope you don't mind me commenting some points seperatly:

Office of Consul should also be available in ERM.

That is true, just let’s not forget the West also continued appointing Consuls and the eastern Emperor accepted them until mid 6th century. Odoacer himself appointed a number of them, including the famous Symmachus.

also, eastern empire should have a few geenrals who hold the patrician titles, in the west there was only one holding the position.

Well generally it is true, although the western Emperors did appoint a number of Patricii over the time who naturally kept this title: Chilperic, Gundobad, and Orestes were all Patricians in the west. Additionally in 475 Ecdidius had been named Patricius by Nepos, but he fled so his status in doubt. Odoacer later joined in the line of Patricians.
The difference between west and east might not that big: in both cases the Emperor wanted to avoid one super Patricius and rather have many bickering against each other. But that’s just my feeling…

huns were no good at sieging at all

Sure the core employed steppe tactics, but the Huns facing the Empire were in reality a confederation of many peoples, and Attila has proven more than once he could take and raze cities.
Anyway this confederation broke apart when the Gepids rebelled and the battle of Nedao ended Hunnic domination over the confederation. It is worth mentioning that Ardaric had to besiege the Huns after this battle for a long time to ensure his victory.

it would be nice to leave roman buildings in now barbarian cities but not providing any bonuses, you know such as the colloseum which still stands today.

Odoacer and more so Theoderic the Great were using the western Roman civil administration to great effect. They were not some fur-clad illiterate brutes hell-bend on destroying civilization, quite the opposite actually. Theoderic restored many of the destroyed buildings in many cities, and Gothic kings used the Colosseum for their own representation much like the Emperors did before them. The last great spectacle classic Rome was to see was hosted by Totila in the Circus Maximus, before Rome fell into ruins thanks to the final phase of the Gothic wars.
The west did not “die”. In many regions Roman way of life ended, sometimes in a gruesome way, in other regions it did not. Ironically Odoacer and the Goths were much better in defending Roman civilization than Justinian who ended it forever in Italy by reducing the land to rubble.
I had a long but good discussion with my friend Tim about that, you may want to read it, you will find references to academic literature and ancient texts in it, beginning here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...71#post6399871

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

That's very interesting.

[VirIlluster]

on your last point fileager, i agree, but just because first barbarian kings were romanized, that doesnt hold true for the latter ones, as i assume that the mod will span several hundred years,

as for huns sieging tactics i was reffering to tolosa where it was mostly huns.

and as for consuls and patricians in the west, they shouldnt count as because they were now titles not given by the emperor, and those titles dissapeared eventually anyway. Exept ponitfex maximus, thats still around today, thats the pope ,.

[VirIlluster]

my source is a very interesting book, thats somewhere in my house, ill try finding it, it depicts the trial of litorius and mob justice bleh.

[Aethelstan]

I agrre with flieger on all points he made.

On the "huns sieging thing" you can also look a the series of cities conquered on attilas gaul-campaign.

just because first barbarian kings were romanized, that doesnt hold true for the latter ones

? They would be even more romanized. And theres lot of proof for that in the sources, especially for Vandals and Osrtgoths.

One overall attitude there a quote from a Visigoth king (I guess it was Ataulf and reported by Orosius, but would have to look it up), its freely recalled about that:
First I tried to destroy the roman empire and replace it with the rule of my people, now I´m trying to maintain it with the power of my people.

[FliegerAD]

To be fair Aethelstan, I think VI is referring to much later kings like Charlemagne.

Although I am not sure what timeframe this mod has it would be reasonable to assume it does not stretch too far. In ‘several centuries’ you see massive changes in just everything; only one example: Since the armies massively changed, the modders would have to create several Roman army rosters, several Frankish, several Visigothic etc. and find a way implementing the rosters.

Within the timeframe of the fifth and sixth century Roman titles and offices did have a very important meaning, actually this was the legitimization to rule over the Roman citizens in the west, who still existed as citizens. Officially the overlord was still the Emperor, evidenced by the coinage e.g.
Every single Patricius I listed had his title from the Emperor, and (almost) every consul ever named was appointed on the consent of the Emperor, so I don’t see your point.

Naturally things changed later on: with the unprovoked and brutal destruction of the most Romanized kingdom in the west, the Arabs disrupting the unity of the Mediterranean, and Charlemagne creating a new empire, Roman titles and offices became irrelevant.
Things changed in the ERE just as well. No consular dating since Justinian, no Latin titles since Heraclius… one could easily continue the list.

Anyway I don’t think this is a concern unless this project is going to be the mega-monster-uber-mod-to-end-all-mods with a battailon of modders capable of spanning several centuries.

[Aethelstan]

I would think here on a timeframe between 30 and 60 years.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

533 would be a good end date, as that was the end of the romano mauri
also when you find that book virilluster, PM it to me.

[VirIlluster]

with such a small timeframe then sure its relevant, Fileager was right i did refer to a slightly later time period, such as when lombards ravaged italy but it depends on time stretcher though i guees. and yeah, last point on huns sieging cities, and barbarians takin them overall is, the garrisons werent large because they were large and secure cities, atilla razed alot of gaul to the ground, and aetius kept the gaul army to himself mostly, alot of which was wiped during the later civil war. so taking towns with barely any soldiers in it afterwards doesnt seem ot be much of a challege.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

The Gallic field army was divided up pretty well, Aetius ahad the bulk of it near arelate, Aegidius had 12000 men in the north, and the spanish field army in tarraconesis kept the visigoths pinned down.

[VirIlluster]

true enough, but with the bulk in the south, and only 12k in the north, idk the odds are kinda against aedigius, dont think aetiius would want him to valiantly lose them holding the frontiers.

[Constantius]

The article I have just finished reading, argues that the Hunnic horde in Roman/European history, was not a mounted horde at all. The one mentioned in the sources was one that lived on the steppe, where pastoral nomads could continue their life style. By the time the Huns had settled on the Pannonian plain, the assumed mounted horde had adapted, to the use of infantry. The geography alone, the terrain is broken and the pasture is less and livestock's harder to feed.
Also the sources which mention the Hunnic engagements, do not mention masses of horsemen, as they had when describing earlier raids. For example the raids of 395 in Mesopotamia and Syria from the north. Two letters of St Jerome refer to horses and horsemen, the first in 396, is based on Ammianus Marcllinus, and wrongly takes the small size and motley appearance of steppe ponies, as proof of their inability to defeat, the stall fed Roman charger. The second from 399, comments on speed and mobility. The article rightly points out that the grass lands of Northern Syria and Mesopotamia, were easily capable of supporting up to 325,000 horsemen, as in the Mongol raids of 1299-1300, so its not surprising to see Hunnic horseman in the east.
One hint off the Hunnic adaption to European geographical conditions at the turn of the century, in an passage by Sozomen, he describes how the bishop Theotimus of Tomis, warding off an attempt to rope him in by a Hun, the passage does not mention the Hun being mounted , by does mention he was leaning on a large shield.
The article goes on to talk of the defeat of Radagaisus's Goths by Stilicho and Uldin, its always assumed this was due to Hunnic cavalry, but contemporary sources to not seem to feel the need to mention them.
In the 440's at the failed siege of Asemus, the defenders were able to ambush the returning Huns, it is difficult for fortress defenders to ambush a mass of horseman. It is also difficult for a large mounted army to feed their horses, if in an area for any length of time, to maintain a siege.
The geography itself would imply the need to adapt to their new home, on the Pannonian plain, apart from being tiny, in comparison to the Mongolian steppe, it would of been part marsh and partly forested. In short it could not sustain anything like the numbers of horses the Huns had used in the east.
The author asks the question "How did the Huns respond to the new conditions West of the Carpathians? They began to resemble their neighbours !The reason I felt the need to make this point, the steppe tactics comments and Hunnic siege warfare, that I noticed mentioned above, I think its fairly safe to assume the Huns adapted to european warefare quite quickly and as was correctly pointed out by somebody the Hunnic empire was a collection of peoples under Hunnic hegemony.

[VirIlluster]

very interesting information constantius, i apreciate certain clarifications there on hun warfare

[Aethelstan]

Yes, thank you constantius for this interesting post.