Spring Preview 2010

[Vardan the Great]

Maybe I have already said it,but I smell this will be as great as RSII in Roman time!!!

[kastrologos]

Excellent work guys, keep it coming!

[diamutene]

Awesome work

[Samariten]

This mod is still under development right?

[Hax]

This mod is still under development right?

Pretty much, yeah.

[Hochmeister]

Still looks great -- can't wait!

[Visarion]

wow! very nice! love those Hussites!

[mamik_yev_konak]

Maybe I have already said it,but I smell this will be as great as RSII in Roman time!!!

Correction: Great as EB, just in the middle ages

[Space_Ed]

Correction: Great as EB, just in the middle ages

Yep.... if not better

[Hax]

Thanks. I like the epiphet "EB of the Middle Ages". EB is a brilliant mod when it comes to historical accuracy.

[Vardan the Great]

Correction: Great as EB, just in the middle ages

Let be so!

[someidiot777]

I want this mod soooooooooooo much, it looks sooo awesome, good job you guys and girls!

[Gaius Marius Maximus]

wooow i love that's musique very nice work

[cubase5]

What is the name of the last song in the preview?

[napoleonic]

amazing mod, I have some questions though :

1. about map
a. how far to the east this mod would include? to make it easier to answer, compare it to current stainless steel map, will DotS be the same, or different?
b. I see Iceland in the preview, I couldn't help but thinking, isn't it going to be useless?

2. about the battle system, what battle system will DotS use? I mean, SS use RC (and RR for the latest), will DotS use RC too or develop it's own method? I haven't seen any mention of battle system in DotS preview, I'm worried that you guys neglecting this department... what about the AoR too? will this mod has AoR knights for example (1 thing that missed in the latest RR system for SS)? and mercs, will this mod put heavier emphasis on mercs, I for one would love the ability to hire mercs from settlements.

3. about incorporating of other mods units, I've seen in this preview that DotS is incorporating Magyar mod units, how about others excellent mods? CBUR is amazing and already incorporated in latest SS, OTOH Broken Crescent is also equally amazing in representing outremer faction units, will this mod incorporating those? I'm sure it will shorten your works a lot. Hm, I just saw units previews and it seems that this mod will use it's own developed units for arabs

4. I honestly think the government systems are over complicated and I fear that the AI will get confused with them, what if these don't work? what if in the end these has to be taken out from the mod? we have to realize that the game was never designed to represent governmental aspects.

5. speaking of the AI, what kind of AIs (CAI, BAI) will be used? will the AI get massive scripting helps/boosts to help them too?

6. what about the resources systems as well as overall economic aspect of this mod? can someone explain it in detail? it would be disappointing if a mod this complex only use vanilla economic system in the end?

that's my questions for now

[pacco]

I can give you answer for your third question - about the units from other mods:
Sumskilz, Leif Erikson and I work(ed) for CBUR (TGC) and Broken Crescent. I think with this everything is clear.
But Hross or other DotS members can give you more informations and plans.

[Resurrection]

amazing mod, I have some questions though :

1. about map
a. how far to the east this mod would include? to make it easier to answer, compare it to current stainless steel map, will DotS be the same, or different?
b. I see Iceland in the preview, I couldn't help but thinking, isn't it going to be useless?

From Iceland to Yemen, we are creating our brand new map based on historical and real world data so it shall be as accurate as possible (no more highway through Alpes and similar nonsense).

2. about the battle system, what battle system will DotS use? I mean, SS use RC (and RR for the latest), will DotS use RC too or develop it's own method? I haven't seen any mention of battle system in DotS preview, I'm worried that you guys neglecting this department... what about the AoR too? will this mod has AoR knights for example (1 thing that missed in the latest RR system for SS)? and mercs, will this mod put heavier emphasis on mercs, I for one would love the ability to hire mercs from settlements.

The battlesystem has not been coded yet. RC will be our basis yes but we plan on making battle much more dependent on morale than on stats of units. Hopefully you will see only realistic outcomes of battles such and no fighting to the last man as is often seen even with RC.

Recruitment system is whole another story and along with AoR we want to implement system of maximum units available (similar to elite units in ETW). Cannot provide anymore details yet though.

3. about incorporating of other mods units, I've seen in this preview that DotS is incorporating Magyar mod units, how about others excellent mods? CBUR is amazing and already incorporated in latest SS, OTOH Broken Crescent is also equally amazing in representing outremer faction units, will this mod incorporating those? I'm sure it will shorten your works a lot. Hm, I just saw units previews and it seems that this mod will use it's own developed units for arabs

Atop of what pacco said we are using stuff from Magyar mod, Rusichi TW and I believe some others too.

4. I honestly think the government systems are over complicated and I fear that the AI will get confused with them, what if these don't work? what if in the end these has to be taken out from the mod? we have to realize that the game was never designed to represent governmental aspects.

It's actually rather simple in nature and all it does is limiting the amount of control player (or AI) can exercise over the region/settlement. On colony level nothing is possible, you just get taxes. On autonomy level your tech-tree is limited. On homeland you have full control. AI won't have problem with this, it will just do what it is allowed to (just like player). The change of type of settlements is done over time via script for AI and via tech-tree option for player. So after taking a region it will be your colony, after say 20 turns (10 years) it may become autonomy and after say 50 years (100 turns) it may become homeland.

5. speaking of the AI, what kind of AIs (CAI, BAI) will be used? will the AI get massive scripting helps/boosts to help them too?

XAI and XCAI.

6. what about the resources systems as well as overall economic aspect of this mod? can someone explain it in detail? it would be disappointing if a mod this complex only use vanilla economic system in the end?

We have Authentic Economy Project aimed at making the economy as accurate as possible.

[Hengest]

amazing mod, I have some questions though :

1. about map
a. how far to the east this mod would include? to make it easier to answer, compare it to current stainless steel map, will DotS be the same, or different?
b. I see Iceland in the preview, I couldn't help but thinking, isn't it going to be useless?

We are completely different from Stainless Steel, we've evolved separately - the map reaches as far east as Merv province, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merv which is as far as we can go without involving India. This has more consequences in Russia too. We also go quite far south into Africa including half of the continent.

2. about the battle system, what battle system will DotS use? I mean, SS use RC (and RR for the latest), will DotS use RC too or develop it's own method? I haven't seen any mention of battle system in DotS preview, I'm worried that you guys neglecting this department... what about the AoR too? will this mod has AoR knights for example (1 thing that missed in the latest RR system for SS)? and mercs, will this mod put heavier emphasis on mercs, I for one would love the ability to hire mercs from settlements.

We are working with Xeryx and we have been in close contact with Point Blank, having him and many people like him as a consultant and friend for many years in fact. The reason we haven't released details about the units is because we are still wrestling with the EDU. Making 500 new units isn't easy, our first release will use many placeholders from other mods rather than actual original unique units. But the way these units will occur in the game will be unique and has been thoroughly researched and thought through. AoR is just one aspect of that. Nearly every region will have at least one unique regionally recruitable unit. Some regions such as Ireland or Finland will have around 10, which makes some of these less economically interesting areas more alluring -making up with good cheap units where they lack good trade or agriculture. Incidentally, before we get accused of racism, Finland will have pretty fair trade and Ireland pretty good agriculture....

3. about incorporating of other mods units, I've seen in this preview that DotS is incorporating Magyar mod units, how about others excellent mods? CBUR is amazing and already incorporated in latest SS, OTOH Broken Crescent is also equally amazing in representing outremer faction units, will this mod incorporating those? I'm sure it will shorten your works a lot. Hm, I just saw units previews and it seems that this mod will use it's own developed units for arabs

CBUR developed as part of DOTS, and we were the first mod to work with the Real Horses Project since its developer was a mod member at the time. We have a pretty good view of available units, and as we have worked with or in several cases actually originated independent single-faction focussed mods, we have good contacts and friendships with them. So a variety of good units should not be a problem.

4. I honestly think the government systems are over complicated and I fear that the AI will get confused with them, what if these don't work? what if in the end these has to be taken out from the mod? we have to realize that the game was never designed to represent governmental aspects.

We can't make a mod like this without a realistic and detailed tech tree, that is not to say that it is complicated. It is actually quite simple, it is just very different from any other mod so many players will be unused to the systems we introduce. For instance, several factions will have access to numerous religious trees which allows for example Sicily to encourage Islam which will cause unrest but will allow access to Muslim units. Of course the AI will not be able to think for itself, there are endless mods including Broken Crescent and Third Age that I can name off the top of my head that use buildings that the AI can't handle at all. Our AI will be able to use all of the trees we give them, so it will be realistic and full of variety- what we cannot guarantee is that the AI will build these strategically or with an overall plan- it won't and yes there is nothing that we can do about it. We are sure this will not effect the AI negatively, if we do run into some issues we will use scripts later to deal with it. The AI will already have cashflow bonuses and other logical fair 'cheats' that will aid the AI to work better and present a more human challenge. We will also release a full guide to our tech tree as well as our map with our release, detailing info on where to acquire certain units, traits etc

5. speaking of the AI, what kind of AIs (CAI, BAI) will be used? will the AI get massive scripting helps/boosts to help them too?

I think I've answered both of those questions already.

6. what about the resources systems as well as overall economic aspect of this mod? can someone explain it in detail? it would be disappointing if a mod this complex only use vanilla economic system in the end?

that's my questions for now

Again, I don't think the end result of our project will be complex, it's just the work that's gone into it! We have a special department called the Authenthic Economic Project which has been specifically tasked to rig costs, values, unit upkeeps and buildings times as well as farming values in each region and the value of resources all in authentic and well-researched medieval values. For instance we have detailed info on upkeep costs, we know that during a campaign 100 men in a unit would need to clean and repair their armour several times a month, even without battle just marching and weather would cause wear and tear.

equipment upkeep costs (according to medieval sources)
fee for cleaning 100 mail shirts = 3,75 florins
fee for repairing 100 pieces of armour = 5 florins

Let's say just for arguments sake that a piece of armour needed repairing or cleaning once every 15 days (with or without battles) that's around 10 times in a turn. A typical repair/cleaning on combined mail/plate would cost around 10 florins at a time (include helmets, greaves, pauldrons, weapons), at 10 times per turn is 100 florins of kit per unit. Add to this the cost of the actual materials, the cost for food and clothing...

Food and clothing would come out of a man's wages- a man-at-arms cost about 1 shilling a day, and a knight around 4 shillings a day. There were 20 shillings to a pound/florin. So 100 men-at-arms during a 175 day period (game turn) would cost L875 in upkeep then we need to add equipment maintenance on top. A unit of 50 knights would cost around L1750 per turn without the cost of equipment maintenance.

As for buildings we have worked out that an average workforce of 150 skilled labourers cost about 300 florins per turn (L300), add this to the cost of materials and building costs soon rise pretty quickly. We get something like
Cathedral L30,000
Castle L5850
Palazzo/Palace L5000
Abbey L8000
Small Church L200 (incidentally, we don't use small churches in our tech tree but the establishment of churches in a region- so this figure is timed by ten roughly)

[napoleonic]

thanks for the awesome answer!

so it shall be as accurate as possible (no more highway through Alpes and similar nonsense).

make sense for historical reason, but wouldn't it create certain bottlenecks and repeated patterns for certain factions? for example, HRE would have to go round around france to attack italy? making them always at war with france.

and does that mean landbridges will be removed? creating another kind of bottleneck and limitation for the AI?

[Hengest]

No there are at least three passages through the Alps but these are blocked by control points such as settlements or more often PSFs (permanent stone forts) representing the major towns, castles and cities. So you need to contro or have allied control over those points to allow free movement of your armies. This is to slow down the expansion of the AI and the player, plus it makes the campaign landscape more realistic and not just a desert with a dot in the middle (one settlement per region).

The AI still needs a helping hand in movement and actually attacking though, we are confident that it won't spam in expansion (due to the control points) but it will 'think' better. Our mapper Res, started off years ago not as a mapper in fact but specially tasked with working on the AI, his experiments lead him into mapping. Basically the AI works better under certain conditions, for example it ignores PSFs unless they are placed inbetween the point between two settlements, or at a river crossing or in bottlenecks such as the Alps.
Landbridges may be used far more prolifically than they usually are to improve AI movement, they will still find their paths blocked by control points once they cross though.