"MACEDONIAN clip that will always shocking Greece"

[Gromovnik]

So much nationalist bs from one crappy video...

[bushbush]

I
Question: Why all this animocity against Thracians, belittling them etc etc? The way some people described them they sound like apemen eating fruits from the trees and hitting animals with stones to eat.

What I have heard, they had their culture, they borrowed from us the alphabet etc etc. Let's not forget that the Greek alphabet was borrowed from Phoenicans as well. For example, my father read about them in ancient historicans and even them, they didn't describe them as uncivilised stone age barbarians. They were using axes for example, why Greeks used spear or sword.

na, people are just responding to claims like they were the FIRST CIVILIZATION of europe or they were ON PAR with greeks in civilization. Many have problems with such claims.

[Carpathian Wolf]

Haha, go to read the Wiki article before falsly accused other people trolling.

I did. And you are doing just that. How can Dorians have claim to a culture they never even reached? I forgot that Vukovar was founded by Dorian Greeks...

[Braindead Colonel]

Heh, I've heard claims of Alexander being Slav, or Albanian. That he is Romanian is a new twist (though apparently the OP still has some thin grasp of reality, and doesn't go so far as to say that.)
Ah, wonderful Balkans, you never cease to amuse me.

[Tecumseh]

The Balkans are so cute.

[Romano-Dacis]

That he is Romanian is a new twist

Indeed, and one purely fabricated by your imagination, since nobody said anything remotely close to that.

na, people are just responding to claims like they were the FIRST CIVILIZATION of europe or they were ON PAR with greeks in civilization. Many have problems with such claims.

The age is what the documentary argues. Nobody stated that they were on par with Greek civilization, but this is mostly due to the exception of writing.

I argue against your "semi-civilized" comment, which reeks of Gibbonian bias. Anything in Europe which we cannot identify with classical civilization is automatically placed in the category of uncivilized. If we can identify it with classical civilization then suddenly "well they just have that because the Greeks/Romans civilized them." It is impossible to appreciate the native elements of their civilization with your myopic viewpoint. How can they be civilized if they do not reflect an obvious stereotype and mould that we have created based on civilizations in the Mediterranean?

[Visarion]

Alexander was half Greek - half Illyrian!

Herakles was Thracian or Greek?

What do you think?

[Nikos]

Alexander was half Greek - half Illyrian!

Herakles was Thracian or Greek?

What do you think?

What?

[torongill]

See, macedonian "historians" are trying to create history, because there's almost nothing, that connects the macedonian society. FYROM was created in 1991 after the demise of Yugoslavia. This is the second Macedonian state after the first one was defeated and absorbed by the Romans. about 2100 years ago. The macedonian language itself is a mix of Serbian, Bulgarian and greek words and the dialect of Macedonia(and was even more before the reforms of the Macedonian language during the 1990s). The fervent nationalism is basically the only thing that keeps this state together. Thus the reinvention of history, the macedonization of everything that has ever happened in the territory of the geographical entity Makedonia(because the state of Macedonia covers about half of the geographical region, the others parts are in Greece and Bulgaria). Thus the "Macedonian Egypt" and the articles "for make benefit glorious nation of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", called "history".
So be prepared for "Macedonian Alphabet"(Cyrilic), "Macedonian culture, incorrectly called Hellenistic", "Macedonian Egypt, part II", "Macedonian Spartacus", "Macedonian Iraq", and who knows, maybe even a macedonian Jesus .

As for the Thracian civilization... Of course, it depends on the definition of "civilization", but the Thracian tombs, the ritual complexes in Perperikon, Seutopolis and the Thracian treasures are not artefacts from a society of gatherers and hunters.

P.S. I'm Bulgarian and my hometown is very close to the Starosel thracian complex.

P.P.S. Herakles is a mythical figure. When you prove that he actually lived, we can start discussing whether he was Greek, Thracian, Minoan or Cimmerian(like Conan).

[bushbush]

.


The age is what the documentary argues. Nobody stated that they were on par with Greek civilization, but this is mostly due to the exception of writing.

oh you might wanna check the other thread and various blog sources used there.

.
I argue against your "semi-civilized" comment, which reeks of Gibbonian bias. Anything in Europe which we cannot identify with classical civilization is automatically placed in the category of uncivilized. If we can identify it with classical civilization then suddenly "well they just have that because the Greeks/Romans civilized them." It is impossible to appreciate the native elements of their civilization with your myopic viewpoint. How can they be civilized if they do not reflect an obvious stereotype and mould that we have created based on civilizations in the Mediterranean?

why not? We can still appreciate their cultures despite them being semi-civilized. You can appreciate them without exaggerating their "achievements" which in turn is an insult to how great the ancient greeks were. The thracians had no writings of their own. They had no classics survived. They had no giant cities and beautiful artworks left (only a few ruins here and there). They had nothing left to show their scientific knowledge (only second hand sources, written often by GREEKS). How on earth could you label them a CIVILIZATION of their own? If you do that, you might as well label most of europe a civilization at that time. The truth is the greeks were miles ahead of these semi-barbaric people in the north, who in turn became hellenized. The fact that they use greek shows how much intellectual debt they owe to the greek civilization. Pleaes romano, don't let your nationalism cloud this fact.

[Braindead Colonel]

Alexander was half Greek - half Illyrian!

Herakles was Thracian or Greek?

What do you think?

I think that it's enough of a stretch that Albanians consider themselves Illyrian. To claim that Epirotes (and Olympia, Alexander's mother) where not Greek though is just plain idiotic.

[Phoebus]

Visarion,

Alexander was a quarter Illyrian (or possibly Lyncestian) at best, from Philip's mother's side.

Trying to measure how "Thracian" the Macedonians were is pointless. Is there anything resembling a somewhat reliable tool to be used to arrive at even an approximation of such a statistic? Personally, I don't see how one might automatically assert that such unions occurred on a wide scale. We already know that the ethnic Greek groups occupying much of Philip's Macedon made a point of separating themselves along tribal lines. See, for instance, the Lyncestians (whose kings themselves claimed descent from Corinth, much like the Argeads did from Argos), Orestians, or Pelagonians. We know the same treatment was given to Paionians and Odrysians, who are qualified as foreign and/or Thracian (depending on the source). Given the constant enmity and competition for land and resources exhibited both by Greeks against Greeks and Greeks against "outsiders", I fail to see why one would assume a large degree of trans-national marriages and offspring.

I'd posit that dynastic marriages, such as the ones the Argead kings engaged in, are a much more likely possibility--and not, say, Amyntas the farmer hooking up with a Thracian lady from the contested valley over the hills, or Seuthis the shepherd taking Berenike to be his lawful bride.

And no, none of my suppositions come from the fact that I don't like the idea of Macedonians sharing blood with Thracians, Paeonians, etc. I'm pretty sure Miltiades' mom was Thracian, and he did well for us at Marathon. His son, Cimon, IIRC, was also Thracian on his mother's side, and he did well for us as well. Demosthenes just worried about crazed half-barbarians when they didn't happen to be Athenian on the other side, and spreading Democracy to everyone else.

[Braindead Colonel]

P.P.S. Herakles is a mythical figure. When you prove that he actually lived, we can start discussing whether he was Greek, Thracian, Minoan or Cimmerian(like Conan).

He is a figure of Greek mythology. Feel free to prove me wrong by posting Thracian, Cimmerian, Atlantian or Martian texts that mention Herakles.

Visarion,

Alexander was a quarter Illyrian (or possibly Lyncestian) at best, from Philip's mother's side.

No, she was Epirote, not Illyrian, not Pelasgian, or whatever the latest Albanian Ancestor trend is nowadays.

[Carpathian Wolf]

Alexander was half Greek - half Illyrian!

Herakles was Thracian or Greek?

What do you think?

No sorry he was not Illyrian. Alexander's mother was an Epirote who were Greeks.

[Carpathian Wolf]

Visarion,

Alexander was a quarter Illyrian (or possibly Lyncestian) at best, from Philip's mother's side.

Trying to measure how "Thracian" the Macedonians were is pointless. Is there anything resembling a somewhat reliable tool to be used to arrive at even an approximation of such a statistic? Personally, I don't see how one might automatically assert that such unions occurred on a wide scale. We already know that the ethnic Greek groups occupying much of Philip's Macedon made a point of separating themselves along tribal lines. See, for instance, the Lyncestians (whose kings themselves claimed descent from Corinth, much like the Argeads did from Argos), Orestians, or Pelagonians. We know the same treatment was given to Paionians and Odrysians, who are qualified as foreign and/or Thracian (depending on the source). Given the constant enmity and competition for land and resources exhibited both by Greeks against Greeks and Greeks against "outsiders", I fail to see why one would assume a large degree of trans-national marriages and offspring.

I'd posit that dynastic marriages, such as the ones the Argead kings engaged in, are a much more likely possibility--and not, say, Amyntas the farmer hooking up with a Thracian lady from the contested valley over the hills, or Seuthis the shepherd taking Berenike to be his lawful bride.

And no, none of my suppositions come from the fact that I don't like the idea of Macedonians sharing blood with Thracians, Paeonians, etc. I'm pretty sure Miltiades' mom was Thracian, and he did well for us at Marathon. His son, Cimon, IIRC, was also Thracian on his mother's side, and he did well for us as well. Demosthenes just worried about crazed half-barbarians when they didn't happen to be Athenian on the other side, and spreading Democracy to everyone else.

Why not a Thracian mixture? We know Greek culture spread from the south. And under the sheets do you really think one cares if he or she is Thracian or Greek?

It's kind of like a scale, north to south, south to north. The further north you get the more Thracian, the further south the more Greek.

[Phoebus]

No, she was Epirote, not Illyrian, not Pelasgian, or whatever the latest Albanian Ancestor trend is nowadays.

I'm talking about Eurydice, mother of Philip. Her mother, at the very least was either Illyrian or Lyncestian. As such, Eurydice was, potentially, half-Illyrian. That would make Philip only potentially a quarter Illyrian, thus throwing off my percentage for Alexander's potential Illyrian blood.

Whether Illyrian or Lyncestian, though, I seriously think you're confusing my reference to Eurydice to Olympias.

[Braindead Colonel]

I'm talking about Eurydice, mother of Philip. Her mother, at the very least was either Illyrian or Lyncestian*. As such, Eurydice was, potentially, half-Illyrian. That would make Philip only potentially a quarter Illyrian, thus throwing off my percentage for Alexander's potential Illyrian blood.

Whether Illyrian or Lyncestian, though, I seriously think you're confusing my reference to Eurydice to Olympias.

* I tend to think her Illyrian, since, without that "barbarian" blood, Demosthenes attacks on Philip's heritage would have been particularly baseless.

Demosthenes was a politician, so one has to take whatever he said with a grain of salt.
Do you have any links with that info? If it is true, then it's so much more a shame for baseless historical revisionism, as such details can easily be considered as false by the casual reader (such as myself), since there is just so much nonsense floating around on forums discussing history in the Balkans.

[torongill]

He is a figure of Greek mythology. Feel free to prove me wrong by posting Thracian, Cimmerian, Atlantian or Martian texts that mention Herakles.

Thank you for the insightful post, Colonel Obvious.
I hate being misunderstood when I have written in unambiguous terms. Let me paraphrase. Herakles is a mythical figure, so discussing his enthnicity is a moot point. With the same success you would be discussing the ethnicity of Batman and whether he was/is 1/16 Apache Indian.

[Visarion]

to be continued...

Let me rephrase do you thing the myth of Herakles was Greek or Thracian at origin?

[Braindead Colonel]

Thank you for the insightful post, Captain Obvious.
I hate being misunderstood when I have written in unambiguous terms. Let me paraphrase. Herakles is a mythical figure, so discussing his enthnicity is a moot point. With the same success you would be discussing the ethnicity of Batman and whether he was 1/16 Apache Indian. Do you catch my drift or should I explain in simpler terms?(I'm not sure I can).

Batman is a product of American culture. Just as Herakles is a product of Ancient Greek culture.

The works describing Herakle's achievements are unambiguously Greek, just as Bob Kane was 100% American.