Debate NTW's Sandbox Element in the Grand Campaign: Is it there?

[Fenrisulfrinn]

Hey, community, I still haven't gotten NTW yet, and I'm extremely apprehensive about it because it seems from what I've heard so far that the game is a lot less open-ended than a TW game is supposed to be. If all your diplomacy is practically set from the start and you have certain specific objects you must complete (as opposed to just owning a certain number of territories), where is the fun/replayability?

Let me hear what you have to say about this

[DunkFunk]

theres two types of campaigns isnt there? im currently installing but the manual says there is the one you described and the classic 50 territories dont care how you do it just get it done campaigns.

[JohnHamm]

IMHO Playing the Coalition Campaign is really no different than playing the a European Power in ETW plus the map is larger (for Europe anyway) Same sandbox feel.

but then again I have only played as Prussians. I think they are the only coalition that is not at war from the start soooo.... that may make a difference.

But honestly I have seen post's were some have been at peace with the other nation that they were supposed to be at war with (due to the way diplomacy works) so all in all...

again in my opinion it is just as good in the sandbox feel and better due to all the tweaks and goodies that were added. Though I have said in other post's I would have rather they just added all this into ETW and made it superior. Then Named it "Empire total war: The Apology Add on"

[Ulan1990]

You can still do whatever you want however now more nations are at war with each other and most nations have bad fleets

[Deathofjams]

It starts off somewhat limited, but 3-4 years into my French campaign I'd completely broken up the Coalition and could then proceed as I wished. Some of the scripts are annoying (the forced Prussian declaration of war if you take Vienna, for example), but they're mostly gone dealt with early in the game. I can only assume that the Coalition campaigns are even less restrictive.

[Fenrisulfrinn]

Great everybody, so far this thread has really improved how I feel towards buying NTW!

[Mikelus Trento]

Hey, community, I still haven't gotten NTW yet, and I'm extremely apprehensive about it because it seems from what I've heard so far that the game is a lot less open-ended than a TW game is supposed to be. If all your diplomacy is practically set from the start and you have certain specific objects you must complete (as opposed to just owning a certain number of territories), where is the fun/replayability?

Let me hear what you have to say about this

Diplomacy you say?

In my campaign game as France on H/H, I recently was able to make peace with both Russia and the Ottmons simply by offering it. (Prussia is gone, Austria a shell of its former self) This allowed me to first liberate both Ireland and Scotland, and soon thereafter Nappy was walking along the Thames.

That seemed pretty open ended to me.

[mp0295]

Good, i was sorta worried like the OP, but how open ended are generals and admirals now?

[Lord Nova]

I've beaten the grand campaign as France, Russia, and Austria. I'm about to beat it as Prussia.

The game follows the same pattern no matter which coalition nation you play as.

You must first beat France and make sure she's harmless usually by looting the capitol and taking lower Italy or Central Europe. Once France is out of the way you then declare war on your allies to get the last regions needed for victory. If you are Austrian and Russian you have the option of invading the Ottomans.


The problem comes down to the fact that the diplomacy is heavily scripted, no matter what Britain is at war with France, no matter what it always bribes others into wars with France. No matter what you can always reform the coalition, even if you've been at war with them for 2 years. The game is scripted to play out events a certain way and with diplomacy being set in stone, I would say there isn't much of a sandbox, compared this to Empire where I could say have a Prussian colony in India as a what if.

If there was a bigger timeline and the nations were given more freedom in terms of diplomacy then you would have a sandbox experience like maybe France and Britain ally to fight the huge Russian stacks conquering Europe or Austria and France reach a stalemate and peace is settled and Spain invades Greece. You won't see any of that going on, it will always be "fight Napoleon" then "conquer victory regions".

All of this was on historical settings. I'm going to test world domination in my British campaign and see if the AI is more free-form or still scripted.

[gord96]

I've beaten the grand campaign as France, Russia, and Austria. I'm about to beat it as Prussia.

The game follows the same pattern no matter which coalition nation you play as.

You must first beat France and make sure she's harmless usually by looting the capitol and taking lower Italy or Central Europe. Once France is out of the way you then declare war on your allies to get the last regions needed for victory. If you are Austrian and Russian you have the option of invading the Ottomans.


The problem comes down to the fact that the diplomacy is heavily scripted, no matter what Britain is at war with France, no matter what it always bribes others into wars with France. No matter what you can always reform the coalition, even if you've been at war with them for 2 years. The game is scripted to play out events a certain way and with diplomacy being set in stone, I would say there isn't much of a sandbox, compared this to Empire where I could say have a Prussian colony in India as a what if.

If there was a bigger timeline and the nations were given more freedom in terms of diplomacy then you would have a sandbox experience like maybe France and Britain ally to fight the huge Russian stacks conquering Europe or Austria and France reach a stalemate and peace is settled and Spain invades Greece. You won't see any of that going on, it will always be "fight Napoleon" then "conquer victory regions".

All of this was on historical settings. I'm going to test world domination in my British campaign and see if the AI is more free-form or still scripted.

i guess if you play and go right for 'Victory Conditions' then the campaigns could play out like that. I ignore VC's and do whatever and I find the game is very "sandbox" like.

There is NO time limit on the campaign. you can play as long as you like so there is many crazy things that can happen. Austria and France allied against Britain. Prussia invading Russia. etc. In my Austrian game I made peace with Napoleon long ago and am now invading the east.

[Graphic]

i guess if you play and go right for 'Victory Conditions' then the campaigns could play out like that. I ignore VC's and do whatever and I find the game is very "sandbox" like.

When I play Prussia I'm going to go berserk establishing a German Empire in place of the French one. Screw the coalition!

The game's only as restricted as you make it. You're pointed in a certain direction but there's nothing stopping you from doing anything you wish.

[gord96]

When I play Prussia I'm going to go berserk establishing a German Empire in place of the French one. Screw the coalition!

The game's only as restricted as you make it. You're pointed in a certain direction but there's nothing stopping you from doing anything you wish.

yeah thats pretty much the truth there. if you play the game linear and following the victory conditions to a T then you will end up with a linear campaign. its as open as you want it to be and on a much more detailed map too!

[Lord Nova]

It has nothing to do with the victory conditions when the AI will always do the same thing every game. Even if you wanted to play it like a sandbox game like Civ4 or GalCiv2 it can't happen cause the AI is scripted to always form alliances. It will never form an alliance against you or try to fight you unless you are France. Britain and Austria never make peace with France even if all that's left of France is Corsica. You can play the game to the year 1920 and conquer any region you want but when the AI is scripted to behave a certain way, I wouldn't call it sandbox. In other words the things I enjoy in GC or other strategy game like power brokering or pitting powers against eachother or influencing other nations to fight wars for me aren't in the game.

You could be Russia and conquered 3/4s of the map and leave nothing but Britain and France. Does Britain come to the aid of the rest of the coalition?No it doesn't, it just accepts a peace treaty from you cause it's suppose to and eagerly awaits your assistance to stop Napoleon. Sorry when the nations are static, I don't see the point in trying to make it a sandbox game when it's clearly not designed to be. It's France vs the world and unless world domination victory conditions also affect the AI to not behave in such a way, I would say it's limiting.

[The_Reckoner]

I feel as though it is a lot less sandbox than previous games. In other total war games I felt like I could do what ever I want and that the game wasn't trying to push me into a certain direction. This is not the case in Napoleon I feel like I'm constantly being pushed a certain way in how I'm supposed to play my campaign. Yeah sure you could argue that you don't have to follow this and do what ever you want but it just feels like there is only a couple if not one way to complete each campaign.

[Graphic]

It has nothing to do with the victory conditions when the AI will always do the same thing every game. Even if you wanted to play it like a sandbox game like Civ4 or GalCiv2 it can't happen cause the AI is scripted to always form alliances. It will never form an alliance against you or try to fight you unless you are France. Britain and Austria never make peace with France even if all that's left of France is Corsica. You can play the game to the year 1920 and conquer any region you want but when the AI is scripted to behave a certain way, I wouldn't call it sandbox. In other words the things I enjoy in GC or other strategy game like power brokering or pitting powers against eachother or influencing other nations to fight wars for me aren't in the game.

You could be Russia and conquered 3/4s of the map and leave nothing but Britain and France. Does Britain come to the aid of the rest of the coalition?No it doesn't, it just accepts a peace treaty from you cause it's suppose to and eagerly awaits your assistance to stop Napoleon. Sorry when the nations are static, I don't see the point in trying to make it a sandbox game when it's clearly not designed to be. It's France vs the world and unless world domination victory conditions also affect the AI to not behave in such a way, I would say it's limiting.

Is this all just theory from you after having played the game for a couple hours? If you go berserk and start attacking coalition members they most definitely will turn on you. Unless you're playing on easy or normal, of course.

[happycynic]

IMHO it is too scripted to be considered a "Grand Campaign." What I would like to see is an expansion that runs things back to just before the Egyptian Campaign (1798), and then gives a more open-ended campaign with an expanded map that at least contains North Africa, Anatolia, Syria, and Judea, and which ideally would put back the Indian and American theaters. Also, you would want to expand the naval roster to allow minor powers more opportunity to develop the kind of navy that could threaten the Big 3. I understand why CA would not put this in the initial release as the theme of this game is to closely follow Napoleon's career, but I think it would make a great expansion pack.

[Selahedīn]

This game does feel a lot more scripted than previous TW games. It makes sense for it to be that way though, given that the whole game basically revolves around a single figure: Napoleon.

At least until you install your first mod!

Because no matter how linear the game may feel right now, all it takes is for someone to make a mod that tweaks the priorities and the expansion patterns of the AI factions, and the entire campaign will change.

And that's exactly why I just saw the UK take Amsterdam and Brussels.

[dearmad]

The way I''m playing it, it should be titled Nelson, Total War.

[Steve Holt]

What happens to the Coalition campaign when France is beaten? Do nations start attacking eachother?

[Graphic]

What happens to the Coalition campaign when France is beaten? Do nations start attacking eachother?

Who says France needs to be beaten for nations to declare war on eachother?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The game's just only begun, too.

Linear my ass.