Portugal

[Master of Times]

Hey people, so what about Portugal on N:TW?

i will buy N:TW soon, but is just to check your opinions

rate with: 0 to 20

on:
in battle
as enemy
as alied

[Arius]

In battle: 6
As enemy: 3
As alied: 7

In my opinion Portugal is a weaker faction. Without the support of Britain is very easy to conquer this Iberian country from Spain.

[Master of Times]

In battle: 6
As enemy: 3
As alied: 7

In my opinion Portugal is a weaker faction. Without the support of Britain is very easy to conquer this Iberian country from Spain.

FROM???? are you kidding me?? from spain? Portugal isn't spanish!!!

AND MORE! without the british support you say? so you don't know history, because the British army helped Portugal fighting the french army, so you NEVER will conquer Portugal without fighting U.K too...

In battle one friend told me Portugal don't have special units, so is a little weak

as alied, Portugal - U.K. are the OLDEST alliance in the world... i think that says something...

[ckangas]

In the end NTW is not a history lesson, it is a computer game.

Portugal doesn't play a large role in events in the game...although neither does Spain. They both just have a few trade fleets and stay out of the way. That being said, Portugal wouldn't be a bad nation to play once mods unlock everything...you'd be able to take out Spain pretty early and have a nice income via trade fleets.

[TheAussieDigger]

portugal are also pretty weak in MP

they have one cavalry unit which is worse than most factions hussars

[ststew]

FROM???? are you kidding me?? from spain? Portugal isn't spanish!!!

AND MORE! without the british support you say? so you don't know history, because the British army helped Portugal fighting the french army, so you NEVER will conquer Portugal without fighting U.K too...

In battle one friend told me Portugal don't have special units, so is a little weak

as alied, Portugal - U.K. are the OLDEST alliance in the world... i think that says something...

i think he was refering to Portugal recieving the aid from Britain.. not the player having support of Britain.. one odd thing is that UK and Portugal are not allied right away. but if you know portugal history as much as you say you do you know they didn't have a full alliance until Napoleon invaded Portugal in 1807, with portugal calling upon past treaties with UK.. altho I think portugal royalty still ran away i think to s.america.. hah.

[impar]

Greetings!

The standard line Infantry is pretty decent. As the elite sharpshooters (Tiradores).

[Master of Times]

i think he was refering to Portugal recieving the aid from Britain.. not the player having support of Britain.. one odd thing is that UK and Portugal are not allied right away. but if you know portugal history as much as you say you do you know they didn't have a full alliance until Napoleon invaded Portugal in 1807, with portugal calling upon past treaties with UK.. altho I think portugal royalty still ran away i think to s.america.. hah.

UK and Portugal have an alliance a lot of years before Napoleon, do you know why Portugal was invaded by Napoleon???

BECAUSE PORTUGAL HELPED UK!!! Portugal don't bloked his ports to UK when Napoleon ordered that to Europe...
ALL OTHER NATIONS HAVE FEAR OF NAPOLEON and stop trade with them, just PORTUGAL DON'T FEARED NAPOLEON!!!

and yes, the portuguese king taked his family to Brazil, that was lame

but we don't choose our kings right?

[The Vicar]

Wow.

Talk about national pride.

Wait for mods to change it, or for CA to release a DLC Iberian campaign (which they most likely will do at some point).

[TasKapisch]

UK and Portugal have an alliance a lot of years before Napoleon, do you know why Portugal was invaded by Napoleon???

BECAUSE PORTUGAL HELPED UK!!! Portugal don't bloked his ports to UK when Napoleon ordered that to Europe...
ALL OTHER NATIONS HAVE FEAR OF NAPOLEON and stop trade with them, just PORTUGAL DON'T FEARED NAPOLEON!!!

and yes, the portuguese king taked his family to Brazil, that was lame

but we don't choose our kings right?

Thanks to him, Brazil earned it's "Independence", or bought it...That, was lame ...

[Ahiga]

portugal are also pretty weak in MP

they have one cavalry unit which is worse than most factions hussars

I don't imagine you're complaining about the one cavalry unit, so this isn't directed at you but for those who do get mad at the lack of cavalry - I'd really ask about what cavalry Portugal had in this period.

When I did research for them in ETW's era I referenced a lot of 19th century Napoleonic stuff, and their weakness of cavalry was well remarked on. I didn't find anything pointing towards light dragoons or hussars in any shape, and their cavalry was kind of an all inclusive "We aren't dragoons, we aren't heavy, we aren't light, we're kind of just...cavalry".

[eleftherios]

Portugal has a 500 point unit of medium cavalry which is cheap, it has no horse artillery nor fixed 750 range artillery. However it has the best 100 range skirmisher 90 man unit and the second best rifles. It has decent Grenadiers and an average line. So on medium funds you tend to field many cavalry unitsto envelop and hold dangerous units that threaten yours while your lights beat them to submission.

[Ludicus]

"We aren't dragoons, we aren't heavy, we aren't light, we're kind of just...cavalry".

Precisely. Medium cavalry, according to the recently published "Armies of the Napoleonic Wars", Osprey:

Brief excerpts

Cavalry
"Tactically,the Portuguese cavalry were not really heavy cavalry, nor were trained to be dragoons, and they were certainly not light cavalry. Here lay the root of the problem. The general staff never really made up its mind as to what the role the cavalry was to fulfil on the battlefield...Even the reforms of 1806 did not really adress the problem, other than to reorganize that arm in something like medium cavalry."

Artillary
"Overall, the battle record of the Portuguese artillary brigades in the field was excellent and on a pair that of their British colleagues.
Some of the Portuguese gunners were well versed in moving artillary through their mountainous country, and this became important in the Pyrenees during 1813. Shere relates that Wellington´s artillary could not be moved down the "narrow and broken road leading to Ortiz, until "some Portuguese artillary, under the direction of a most active and intelligent officer, did contrive to pass much to the surprise of the French, who were perfectly incredulous"

Ordenance
" Cannons were made in Evora as early as 1382, so by the end of the 18th century Portugal had a long tradition of gun making.The preferred material was brass and the designs, while ornate, tended to be more sober than those of Spanish or French guns. In the late 17th and 18th centuries the Portuguese artillary tended to follow the French system.

The Conde de Lippe appointed Colonel de Valléré, a French artillary and engineering specialist, to modernise the ordnance... the Royal Arsenal at Lisbon, was back in production in 1809, casting mostly field pieces to meet demand. (...3 pdrs; 6pdrs; 9 pdrs; 15pdrs to fill the gap between the 12 and 18 pdrs); howitzers 152mm (6in); mortars 310mm (12in)
The calibres in service were 1, 3, 6, 9 and 12pdr campaign pieces; and 18, 24, 36 and 48pdr siege and garrison artillary.
(Not only did needs in Portugal have to be met but, in 1810, the Prince Regent in Rio de Janeiro ordered substantial numbers of guns to be transferred to arm properly the seacoasts of Brazil)
The coordenation between the British and the Portuguese would have to be excellent to match the French Artillary, then considered the best in the world.
........
Infantry, a brief excerpt about the light troops:
In 1808 the Portuguese general staff ordered the creation of a new light infantry arm called caçadores, the Portuguese word for hunters or chasseurs. It was hoped that rigorous training in modern infantry tactics the caçadores would become elite units within the army - a hope that was to be vindicated...the good services of the caçadores (in english, cazadores) who quickly made themselves a reputation as daring elite troops.. the caçadores were to earn ever greater distinction...in the final years of the war, they fought on the Nivelle and Nive rivers, at Bayonne and Toulouse. By then they were considered elite light troops by both the British and the French.

[Stellerex]

Ahiga, Ludicus re: Portuguese cavalry, thank the two of you for adding some historical accuracy to this discussion. Whenever the nationalists rail about why their particular faction isn't 1) playable or 2) don't have a bigger unit roster or better units, I try to tell them this. The simple fact was not every country in Europe had a quality military, in fact, many of them were undergoing reforms, military and political, the results which may not be seen until after the Napoleonic Wars ended. There's going to be alot of Portugals and Swedens, countries which either have either a small roster or weak units. You cannot balance them against the major factions and be historically accurate at the same time.

IMHO if the faction can't be balance I'd rather they keep them unplayable (minor faction). I see not everyone agrees with me though.

[Ahiga]

Ahiga, Ludicus re: Portuguese cavalry, thank the two of you for adding some historical accuracy to this discussion. Whenever the nationalists rail about why their particular faction isn't 1) playable or 2) don't have a bigger unit roster or better units, I try to tell them this. The simple fact was not every country in Europe had a quality military, in fact, many of them were undergoing reforms, military and political, the results which may not be seen until after the Napoleonic Wars ended. There's going to be alot of Portugals and Swedens, countries which either have either a small roster or weak units. You cannot balance them against the major factions and be historically accurate at the same time.

IMHO if the faction can't be balance I'd rather they keep them unplayable (minor faction). I see not everyone agrees with me though.

Well they can be made playable, just it can't be expected for the developers to do so or for their faction to be given special treatment when they played a subordinate role to the major players - Portugal was important in this period's Peninsular campaign, but really just there (Cue someone raging at me). What's more troublesome is when you have people complaining about a roster without doing the research themselves (Expecting others to do it for them). I've -tried- to find resources for Portugal and it's been very hard. And when you get to the available resources, it doesn't really paint a very vivid and full picture.

It's kind of a be careful what you wish for - Hooray, Portugal has resources for the Napoleonic era! And points at how damn weak it was in cavalry. Infantry however, there is much more and I was disappointed to not see any recruitable Ordenazca or some of the more exotic sounding infantry regiments (There was some sort of religious corps of infantry if memory serves). So Portugal can have stuff added, but it needs to be infantry and artillery because there's not really anything there for cavalry.

[Stellerex]

What's more troublesome is when you have people complaining about a roster without doing the research themselves (Expecting others to do it for them). I've -tried- to find resources for Portugal and it's been very hard. And when you get to the available resources, it doesn't really paint a very vivid and full picture.

Oh people don't let facts get in the way of their arguments It's hilarious watching someone complain about historical accuracy when they themselves are inaccurate. Or why Portugal in the game doesn't have hussars, dragoons, or cuirassiers when they didn't have them in real life.

Here, NTW deserves some praise for it looks like they did their homework. Forgot which team member but I believe they claim to have used the Osprey material for their research, in order to have historically accurate units, along with their uniforms.

[impar]

Greetings!

There's going to be alot of Portugals and Swedens, countries which either have either a small roster or weak units. You cannot balance them against the major factions and be historically accurate at the same time.

IMHO if the faction can't be balance I'd rather they keep them unplayable (minor faction).

Where is the challenge for the veteran TW player on that?
One of the best features TW games had (had, not have) is to pick a relatively small faction and win the game.
In NTW, picking one of the big five factons has no real challenge when compared with a Portugal, Denmark, Sweden, etc.
Dont get me wrong here, the Five may be challengeable but not as challengeable as the other factions.

[Ludicus]

I've -tried- to find resources for Portugal and it's been very hard

Try the book "Armies of the Napoleonic Wars" ( ask me anything you need)
The Contents:




Those were the 7 "main" armies of the Napoleonic Wars.

Forgot which team member but I believe they claim to have used the Osprey material for their research, in order to have historically accurate units, along with their uniforms

Precisely.

Again, about the cavalry -Quoting ( Osprey book)

" it could be said that Portugal was not quite a "horse country" like England, France or Spain in terms of breeding a plentiful variety of mounts. The typical horse was a good and sturdy animal, but somewhat too small for heavy cavalry and a bit slow for light cavalry..it was thus the weakest arm of service in the army....sufficient mounts were now harder to find due to the ruinous French invasions....as can been seen, Portuguese cavalry sometimes wanted confidence and might suddenly scatter, but they also gave some good service, such as the 1st ans 11th at Salamanca"
Museu Militar do Porto: Portuguese cavalry charging French draggons. The detail from a contemporary print shows the cavalrymen wearing shakos with the oval plate.

I was disappointed to not see any recruitable Ordenazca..So Portugal can have stuff added

Portuguese Uniforms of the Napoleonic Wars

First post- Infantry

A )Infantry


1 -Before 1806
During the 1790´s:
Old fashioned cut with fall collar, cutway lapels and tricorn hats.

Left, Private

Centre, Officer,
Bue collar and cuffs, yeollow lapels, scarlet turnbacks and silver buttons.

Right, Drummer (and fifers)
reversed conventionally uniforms of the colour of the regimental facing or of turnbacks.




2 -Portuguese Caçadores 1808-15

Left, Fusilier -1808/09
Fair well uniformed and dressed

Centre, Drummer-1810/15
Regimental uniforns with distinctive lace edging the colar and cuffs.

Right, Fusilier, 1810/15
This is the standard dress during the campaings with Wellington which took them from Portugal to France.



-----

3- Portuguese Fusiliers 1809

Left, grey jackets, grey trousers, shakos with cocades.

Centre, blue jackets

Right, grey cloth uniforms.



----

Left, Grenadier sergeant.
Blue shoulder straps/epaulettes with fringes of mixed blue and piping colourwere the official distinction of grenadier; some units started using wings from about 1812-13.

Centre, Officer
For cold weathers officers had a blue double-breasted greatcoat with collar and cuffs of the regimental facing colour.

Right, Sapper
Sappers had the same distinctions as grenadiers-by this time blue wings with worsted lace and fringes.




----

4-Light Troops

Legion of Light Troops (LLL inscription on the shako)

Left, Fusilier,1803/05.

Centre, Fusilier 1809/10

Right, Fusilier, 1808/11,
Green coatee with green collar.



----

Left, Fusilier, Royal Police Guard.

Centre, Private, Telegraph Corps

Right, Private




Next posts, Artillary and Cavalry.

[(HG-F)Ipod]

Could you give us information about Spain, Ludicus? I've seen that Spain is the 6th army...
I've not enough information about the spanish army. In Spain this things aren't popular...

I've sources like this: http://fundacionfranciscodemora.blog...ota-de-la.html (in spanish).

[Ludicus]

Could you give us information about Spain, Ludicus? I've seen that Spain is the 6th army...
I've not enough information about the spanish army. In Spain this things aren't popular...

I've sources like this: http://fundacionfranciscodemora.blog...ota-de-la.html (in spanish).

Sure. Make a new thread