Darth Napoleon Review (7.5/10)

[Bernhardt]

Damn Routagen it looks exactly like ETW the way you describe it, specially the cavalry part.

But really there´s one aspect of all this. In RTW, the units are melee. Theoretically, 2 exactly units would fight themselves until almost both are annihilated. NTW and ETW however are games with fire arms. We all know thet the one who shoots first, wins.

And that´s the problem with the AI at least when it´s the attacker. The defender will win simply because he will shoot first and the attacker will have less guns to respond to. I have a question to those who are bench marking battles : is the AI attacker or defender? When it is the defender, what are the results? And how do you benchmark? Line inf Vs line inf only?

[tater]

Except programming an AI for 2,000 units is much different from programming an AI for 10,000 units. That's where your idea falls apart. Also, it doesn't help that most people don't want to manage that many units. Scale is your biggest problem when considering both the technical and marketing aspects of the proposal. Then there's whether fighting a battle on a flat plane is interesting at all, but that's another argument altogether.

From a tactical AI POV, there are not really 10k (or 20k) units. There are 20 units per side.

That's it. The AI should be able to properly maneuver GROUPS of men/artillery/cavalry.

The individual AI of the troops is (or should be) separate. As player, you tell a group to move to such and such a spot, with a certain facing, width, etc. They do it, and the AI guys also shoot/die based on whatever controls the individuals.

Clearly more attention needs to be paid to the way the AI controls that tiny number of units. Again, it's not like the AI is herding 10,000 cats, it merely needs to tell 20 groups to move to given spots and have a certain facing and width. The choice to advance/fire/melee charge needs to similar to players and realism.

Realism not for its own sake, but because realism is usually SENSIBLE behavior, and not jarring to see as the player. A unit calmly forming up, and rotating when 1 wing is 10 yards from 4 cannon about to spew canister is not uncommon, when a charge would dismount the guns in seconds, instead. Meanwhile, other times, it charges as a blob foolishly.

Nothing is more important than AI.

I have mostly—almost exclusively—played ETW modded, and the AI is not terribly different regardless of mods I've played (DM included), frankly, the basic engine problems seem to be more than mods can handle.

[Rotaugen2009]

Good moves Astaroth. You did exactly what was needed for the health of this thread.

Thanks Rotaugen2009 for this test.
And sorry again for before, because with all these spam/troll postings around I made a mistake with your name.

Yes this really does belong in the review section. Blofeld2K had originally posted a link to this review anyway, its just what it turned into that got ugly. I THINK the original post was meant to show the review, and others could critique the review methodology. If it stayed there, it would have been fine.

There was so much fire being blasted around it was confusing who was who.

For me, the important parts are
1) The review and its implications
2) My own experiences and other's experiences with NTW

I pretty much ignored everything else, ranging from how personalities shaped reviews to who fired first in the flame wars. All that mattered to me was what the game would be like. I'll admit it, I'm a bit selfish and was just looking for what I could expect from the game. Not only did I read this review, I went through a lot of others, as well as bug lists and praise/complaint posts. I'm slowly testing out the various aspects of the game to see how my experiences match up. So far I see great visuals and weak BAI. That's kind of what I would expect. If the BAI gets to the point it stops suicidal general attacks, keeps attacking waves somewhat close together, and has units face the correct direction to fire on my units, then that will be ok for me. For a bigger challange, I'll switch to MP. BTW, if the drop in campaign battles get to where they always work, that is a HUGE plus feature for me. I just won't be able to use in on my laptop at lunch.

[rebelito]

Well, if you, "Lord", cannot even read in english before answering, then this debate is useless. Read my last post about NTW AI and the TW series as compared to EU3, and then try to elaborate.

Also, show me one post were I say "I love NTW! I love NTW!"... show it. Or stop saying nonsense.

You really cannot handle criticism, can you? You are all open and quick to critize everything and everyone else, but cannot handle the same if it comes to you...

Your review is mediocre because it is out of context and biased. That is my view, and it will not change. As it is mediocre, I don't consider it valid in terms of judging the game. It is so simple, yet you, with all your "genius", cannot understand that.

Does that make me an "NTW lover"??? If you think so, then perhaps... well, something does not work very well inside your roof.

Some dream of "hardcore strategy gaming" with the TW games. That is your mistake. Some proclaim that they are experts on the battlefield and in miltary history, just because they served... . The truth is, as I said before, "you are peeing outside the toilet". The TW series IS NOT HARDCORE STRATEGY, and never will be, no matter how you "mod" it.

And that brings me to another interesting subject: modding. There, I will agree with some of you. Not giving modding tools and open files to the comunity is perhaps the biggest mistake CA is making (apart from not hiring the Lord, that is... ). You just need to look at the Civilization forums. Firaxis has made everything but the engine itself open to modding and free. The comunity has made marvels with that! There, you can see real modders dealing with C++ code, to truly make the AI better (the mod is called, you guessed it, BetterAI).

Now THAT is modding! Dealing directly with the code, wich means you know how to program in C++, which also means you understand a little better HOW HARD IT IS TO BUILD A LOGARITHM THAT resembles a little part of human thinking, if possible... only us the C++ programmers can understand that.

Something similar happens in the EU3 comunity, a real hardcore comunity, full of truly high level historians and military experts (I call it the forum of the PhDs). Nobody there portraits himself as a god, the only savior, etcetc... the discussions are high level, real hardcore, like the game. That is why I told you: do you want to play hardcore strategy? Play EU3, and stop complaining that a game 12 levels below EU3 is not behaving "hardcore".

But hey, I realize this type of things are hard to understand for some masses... too bad.

Keep your ilussions of "grandeur", but do not expect that everyone here will adore you blindly. Regards,

Oh, and before I forget: not to "forgive" the melee problems in ETW, but maybe some of you heard about a battle in Gettysburg, PA, in 1863... well, take a look at day 3 of the battle. One of the best generals ever known, proven in the battlefield, decided something that can only be paralleled to the "mass central melee" disasters that sometimes happen in ETW... and with similar results.

Read history before claiming it.

To me, Picket's charge resembles too closely the "melee bug"... not that it is an excuse for a poor code, but it also proves that one cannot use the "military history expertise" argument to attack CA's AI code...

Then again, who reads history, right? Too boring... better to claim expertise than to really have it.

c-ya,

[Rotaugen2009]

Ouch! Folks, regardless of how you feel about the personalities involved, can we keep it to a review of the game, and perhaps the methodology of the review? I, for one, know better than to expect any TW game to be an in-depth hardcore strategy game. I have said it is inbetween Axis & Allies and EU3 (being closer to A&A overall but it does have tactical battles, and MP makes it more of a good tac game). I have played a lot of Paradox games (and have an account on their forum with the ingenious disguise of being named rotaugen2009) and like what they do as well. It all depends on what I feel like playing at that moment. I'd like to see Paradox add tactical battles to their setup and see how they do it. They may well have experimented with it and decided it is currently beyond the technology to do it at a level they feel comfortable with.
I did run ONE battle where I was getting the same results that Darth Vader did. Granted, it was just one and I need to do a lot more to draw useful conclusions, but it did validate some of his criticisms of the game. Can NTW be modded to make the BAI humanlike? I doubt it. But I would like to see some of the more glaring errors I have read about and seen myself addressed in future patches. Like ETW, I am hopeful that it will migrate that direction. I know better than to expect BAI to ever really challenge a human player, at least in the near future. That's why I like the drop-in feature so much.
BTW, the eye candy really did improve. This is a great screenshot game. No, that isn't all I look for in a game, so please no "dump your computer and get a console" attacks please. Its just that I have different categories for games, and this goes in my "strategy and tactics lite" category. Its still fun.

[1in1class]

@rebelito

Lol funny guy Your saying in PA 1863 in history is in, but does the game have to repeat its self as that date in time all the time? Thee melee bug goes on all the time and comes along the blob of AI, its just an "FACT." Thee review on this by darth is all eyes and ears to me and is in all ways "FACTS." Nice review and hope CA gets the AI fixed or just lets the tools come out. I did not buy NTW, and will not buy Total War games till i see an review like this one on it, that puts out the facts.

[Zetto]

Don't agree with Darth, I'd give 8.5 overall, substracting 1.5 for stupid bugs half of which got imported from ETW.

[Verminaard]

Oh, and before I forget: not to "forgive" the melee problems in ETW, but maybe some of you heard about a battle in Gettysburg, PA, in 1863... well, take a look at day 3 of the battle. One of the best generals ever known, proven in the battlefield, decided something that can only be paralleled to the "mass central melee" disasters that sometimes happen in ETW... and with similar results.

Read history before claiming it.

To me, Picket's charge resembles too closely the "melee bug"... not that it is an excuse for a poor code, but it also proves that one cannot use the "military history expertise" argument to attack CA's AI code...

Then again, who reads history, right? Too boring... better to claim expertise than to really have it.

c-ya,

When i was at Gettysburg last summer, the ammount of ground from the woods to cemetary hill, seems like a loooong way under artillery fire. That attack was based on a belief that the northern force center was weakened after flank attacks for 2 days, moreover the south's artillery failed in their logistics support as they did not have ammo for support of the infantry during the attack. Dont think you can actually pull Lee down to the level of AI in Napoleon/Empire, wich basicly just says: k lets go at em and hope we dont bunch up too much.

[tater]

Regarding Picket's Charge, do you think it makes sense for game AI to consistently replicate a failed attack?

If the typical solution in fighting the AI (not for historicity, but to win) is to pile a bunch of guns in the center, then mow all the AI down with case shot as they walk into range, then something is broken, no?

[Remise]

Darth well done as usual, pretty much what I expected and have found in NTW.
Some issues I can't believe they haven't even try to address, but then many did not complain I suppose.
The "Columns" omission was a distasterous decision by CA, and not stopping the Spread sideways in fire and advance which if you try in a line of unit results in friendly fire!!
I have an idea about a way of creating a Columns mod will PM you with my idea, I will try it myself if you decline to follow it but I would prefer you with much more insight and experience to look into it yourself.
I suspect you could do it pretty quickly whereas it would take me a while to find all the nooks and cranies in NTW.

One thing that gets my goat is the picket fences!!!!!!
These are walls with different textures for heavens sake, they stop cannon balls at point blank!!!!
I made the hurried midbattle mistake yesterday of placing my 9lbers with their muzzles point blank behind a picket fence. the Old Guard marched in close I was counting on the guns to blast away the moral of the Guard, except to my chagrin, as I looked closely the cannon were just blasting away into a black hole, one foot from their muzzles.
The fences soaked up all they could give and Napoleon chortled "My 'At maybe worfth 50,000 men but a picket funce is worsth an entiure Army!"

Given the Napoleonic military doctrine was based on the Column and massed Artillary, and seeing how they handled these in ETW I am sadly not surprised by the lack of improvement in these areas.
I hoped, oh boy did I hope!
The graphics are beautiful but don't make a good game alone. Lets hope that now the release has happened, that CA/Sega will eventually feel generous and support their game with tools and improvements we can use, I am not hopeful about that though.
I do not really understand their attitude to us though, many games successfully, if only in part, support or even cater for mods, why can't Total war?

Sigh, there will be a time I think when they will start to port to consoles and then like RainbowSix, Medal of Honor and Call of Duty and many others only port back into PC.
I'd hate to see TW totally become C&C or even BFME but it slowly ever so slowly looks that way.
Darth rightly has pointed to many features already influenced by this Console Culture like the insect speed and hud controls.
The boredom factor I recognize all too well, a consequence of too many small armies, little strategy game implementation, poor diplomatic engine etc..
But I do feel releaved that the naval invasion is a rare event, with this current setup.
Can you imagine the annoyance of endless sloops appearing with entire armies!!
It is a feature, the carry capacity of shipping, I don't understance why they did not address, since Naval warefare is now a feature.
Surely a cargo capacity per ship was not outside the bounds of their ablilities? One Unit per Naval vessel, 2 for merchants, 3 for a unique troop carrier, all sorts of options exist.
I also would have like to see, easier retreat for Cannons for crew before melee, and ability to capture abandoned guns on the field, in the real events of critical importance.
Then of course you might need the ability to spike the guns .... I guess each time CA though about such improvement all they could see was the extra work.
However, to implement such changes why on earth don't they use the DLC's, if they don't wish to keep a full or even part of their team working for free on patches which include improvements, if it was truely justified by the cost and content I, and I supect most of you would be prepared to pay for an evolution of the game, fixes of bugs of course should be free.

Ah well could just go on and on but I am losing play time :-)

Thanks for reminding me -- in an MP campaign battle the other night, one shot -- or possibly one battery's salvo -- destroyed a building with 120 of my troops in it, killing all of them, of course. Oops!

B.C. Milligan

[M2TWRocks]

@rebelito

Lol funny guy Your saying in PA 1863 in history is in, but does the game have to repeat its self as that date in time all the time? Thee melee bug goes on all the time and comes along the blob of AI, its just an "FACT." Thee review on this by darth is all eyes and ears to me and is in all ways "FACTS." Nice review and hope CA gets the AI fixed or just lets the tools come out. I did not buy NTW, and will not buy Total War games till i see an review like this one on it, that puts out the facts.

You say the melee bug "goes on all the time," and "comes along the blob of AI" is a fact. Yet you immediately admit you haven't played the game. Hmm. I'd say that's more along the lines of "CONJECTURE." The actual fact is that most people who have played the game admit there are a few glitches here and there, but certainly not game breaking bugs like as was present in ETW. Matter of FACT, the AI actually plays quite well. Not Wellington or Napoleon, but it does a lot of things right. All of which Darth neglected to point out in his bitter review.

[Shadowfax]

Tank you , i just read the review and u saved me from buying it +rep

[gary]

Well, if you, "Lord", cannot even read in english before answering, then this debate is useless. Read my last post about NTW AI and the TW series as compared to EU3, and then try to elaborate.

Also, show me one post were I say "I love NTW! I love NTW!"... show it. Or stop saying nonsense.

You really cannot handle criticism, can you? You are all open and quick to critize everything and everyone else, but cannot handle the same if it comes to you...

Your review is mediocre because it is out of context and biased. That is my view, and it will not change. As it is mediocre, I don't consider it valid in terms of judging the game. It is so simple, yet you, with all your "genius", cannot understand that.

Does that make me an "NTW lover"??? If you think so, then perhaps... well, something does not work very well inside your roof.

Some dream of "hardcore strategy gaming" with the TW games. That is your mistake. Some proclaim that they are experts on the battlefield and in miltary history, just because they served... . The truth is, as I said before, "you are peeing outside the toilet". The TW series IS NOT HARDCORE STRATEGY, and never will be, no matter how you "mod" it.

And that brings me to another interesting subject: modding. There, I will agree with some of you. Not giving modding tools and open files to the comunity is perhaps the biggest mistake CA is making (apart from not hiring the Lord, that is... ). You just need to look at the Civilization forums. Firaxis has made everything but the engine itself open to modding and free. The comunity has made marvels with that! There, you can see real modders dealing with C++ code, to truly make the AI better (the mod is called, you guessed it, BetterAI).

Now THAT is modding! Dealing directly with the code, wich means you know how to program in C++, which also means you understand a little better HOW HARD IT IS TO BUILD A LOGARITHM THAT resembles a little part of human thinking, if possible... only us the C++ programmers can understand that.

Something similar happens in the EU3 comunity, a real hardcore comunity, full of truly high level historians and military experts (I call it the forum of the PhDs). Nobody there portraits himself as a god, the only savior, etcetc... the discussions are high level, real hardcore, like the game. That is why I told you: do you want to play hardcore strategy? Play EU3, and stop complaining that a game 12 levels below EU3 is not behaving "hardcore".

But hey, I realize this type of things are hard to understand for some masses... too bad.

Keep your ilussions of "grandeur", but do not expect that everyone here will adore you blindly. Regards,

Oh, and before I forget: not to "forgive" the melee problems in ETW, but maybe some of you heard about a battle in Gettysburg, PA, in 1863... well, take a look at day 3 of the battle. One of the best generals ever known, proven in the battlefield, decided something that can only be paralleled to the "mass central melee" disasters that sometimes happen in ETW... and with similar results.

Read history before claiming it.

To me, Picket's charge resembles too closely the "melee bug"... not that it is an excuse for a poor code, but it also proves that one cannot use the "military history expertise" argument to attack CA's AI code...

Then again, who reads history, right? Too boring... better to claim expertise than to really have it.

c-ya,

Well said well written rep

[douglas]

I am one of those "casual gamers" so insulting referred to by Darth. For reasons no one but me worries about it took me four days to get my PC set up to play the NTW game.

Just starting I have no complaints, yet. If I find things that irritate me I will post wherever necessary, and I will not ask the permission of any "professional" gamer.

I would like to ask why, if you (as in anyone) dislike a game, you continue to play it? This "casual gamer" likes the TW series and continues to play it. There are a couple of TW games I think royally stink up the place, but I don't play them.

I guess being a casual gamer means I am just supposed to pay and not not been seen?

Thanks,

Doug

[rebelito]

To me, Picket's charge resembles too closely the "melee bug"... not that it is an excuse for a poor code, but it also proves that one cannot use the "military history expertise" argument to attack CA's AI code...
c-ya,

I have to quote my own post for those who can't... Where do I say that the AI has to resemble a failed attack?

Robert E. Lee failed miserably in his assumptions that the Federal center was weak. He assumed that because he met fierce resistance in Day 2 both in the federal left flank (Little Round Top) and the federal right flank (don't remember the name of that hill). Thus, he thought the federals must have shifted forces to the flanks, weakening the center. So, he sent the bulk of his reserves, plus some rested divisions, to the center on July 3rd.

Of course the ETW AI is not replicating that... that is a very stupid interpretation of my words, worthy only of age 7 and below.

But the fact that one of the greatest generals ever did something that LOOKS exactly like the "mass center blob" in real life destroys the "historicity" argument against the AI. And especially when it comes from historical analphabetes.

The review is biased and mediocre. Period. If you like it that way, well, take it as granted. The only think I can say is that you MAY be wasting a chance to enjoy a light tactical simulator, which is what the TW engine is. If you don't like that, and you praise yourself as a "hardcore strategist", come join us in playing EU3.

If you like both, each one for its moment, well, then join us too.

But I simply refuse to take the word of a biased, mediocre review as granted. No matter who whines or screams. And of course, I refuse to remain silent.

[jegui]

Fire by rank removal

However, if anyone would like to know, then there seems to be a fix for this type of behaviour, and that is to remove Fire by Rank abilities, I have just tested another 2 battles, same conditions and all, and the outcome was totally different, my lines won or they would have in any event, but the enemy ranks held and not once did I witness any of the so called melee bug problems, the enemy lines held evenly, until broken by musket and Artillery fire, or after being attacked reformed and actually sought my men out.
Now in any event, Darth was correct to certain extent about the A.I in Napoleon Total war, however the solution to the problem he identified can be rectified with a simple mod that is already released in the mods area by a chap named Radius, but please dont take my word for it, give it a try and see what you think, I am pleased with this change, perhaps you will be too, who knows, it doesn't cost you anything, and the good thing is if it doesn't work for you, simply remove it, cant see anything difficult about that chaps!

Very good find BG... the little melee found in custom NTW battles has gone with a simple tweak from Radious... Battle lines play very close to Darth mod now... although without the bells and whisles such as ballistics and other things... This is proof that NTW BAI has improved in relation to disastrous ETW patch 1.5... this title is certainly more enjoyable in vanila settings

Note: let's hope they dont destroy it with a patch like it happened in ETW

[Rotaugen2009]

And of course, I refuse to remain silent.

"Be quiet, you"
Professor Peabody to Sherman

So, there is already a mod to alter the way the AI in NTW moves and shoots, BG Graham? Wow, that was fast. Even if its just a bandaid, it shows there might be hope. Just point the right direction, don't suicide charge and don't bring a knife to a gunfight. That's all I ask of the AI.

[kingthrall]

I will repeat my post because of M2TW rocks compiled in this forum compltely off topic

Thanks for clearing that up, but

anyway if i was going to rate Empire total war id rate it a 3/10. If i was going to guess Napoleon total war id rate it a 5.

Compared to other games ive played with the effort some have put in and the budget CA has, there is no excuse. I will not list and take over this post with my reasons why i think the score is low, it is pretty self explanitory.

You want a game that Pales in comparison to Empire total war Darth? Get Myth II soulblighter, patch it with the graphics update and play the game. The game is 11 years old and has 1000 times better real time stratergy and interface. If you cant find a copy, i will personally mail you one.

quote ststew
"51 / 70 is roughly 73% and he gave it 7.5/10... what is your point? very close...

I would rate this game 84/100 and E:TW release about a 67/100 "

You favor this game as being good, i am insulted.

I would like a response to this darth,

As for you M2TW, i do not see any mods you have made or improvments. i have not seen any reviews from you or any sign of help for darths mod. Far as I am concerned you are not helping the situation and continuous attacks on darths credibility insults me.

Darth did a Review of this game, like any reviewer. You may disagree like i have, however Darth has reviewed the game and his opinion is permenent on black and white pages. It will not change so no matter how badly you cry for change, it will not happen.

If you continue to troll Darth on these forums , i will report you and finnaly if that doesnt work i will use my own sly tounge and make your trolling seem redundant.

If you did not understand that or it was too difficult for you buddy ill leave a simple sentence below.

stop posting garbage and clutter so i have to scroll through 10 pages of your jargon to read someone elses valid opinion.

[Rotaugen2009]

Cant take any credit for it, it had been out for a couple of days now by Radious , he has made quit a few tweaks that effect the A.I, and I have to say the improvement is outstanding indeed, try my method which seems to have been adopted as the Benchmark for testing.(custom battles)


All settings on ultra

Grassy flatland's map in custom battles

Use the units that the menu gives you, your faction and the Enemy

deploy artillery

Click start and let the enemy come to you and do the work!

To see how line infantry and light infantry react, you might take out any enemy cavalry with your artillery.(if they charge your flanks)

Let the Enemy lines march to yours.

do this firstly without the mod.

Then try it with the mod and see the difference!

It works splendidly for me and I haven't seen melee or picket or any anomaly yet! I have tried around 5 custom battles!

Oh by the way if you want it, its in the released mod forum.
Chin Chin!

If this works, it will take care of one of the issues raised in Darth's review. Not all of them, but a big one to me. If it does work, I might just have to upgrade my old 2 core laptop to an i7. I wanted to see reviews and attempts at fixes first before sinking the $ into an upgrade.
Now I'm just waiting for a mod that lets me replace Napoleon's face with mine ingame....

[jegui]

If this works, it will take care of one of the issues raised in Darth's review. Not all of them, but a big one to me. If it does work, I might just have to upgrade my old 2 core laptop to an i7. I wanted to see reviews and attempts at fixes first before sinking the $ into an upgrade.
Now I'm just waiting for a mod that lets me replace Napoleon's face with mine ingame....

It does work! I also tested with the same criteria used by all DM testers and BG settings above Not a single AI unit charged my lines in a melee blob... I used the classic FBR mod... and another thing it adds is fire by rank which also described negatively by Darth... the functionality exists in NTW