Building list!

[PROMETHEUS ts]

To be updated!

[antisocialmunky]

I thought I might post the techtree from Duke John's mod so you can bounce ideas around:

(JOHN)
I'm not saying that there will be armoured variants of units. I meant that a standard RTS upgrade system is unrealistic. Once you have build an armoury you get armoured units for free. While in real life those units would cost alot more and thus presenting the Daimyo with a choice. With the RTS system there is no choice as it would be stupid not to go for upgrades. On top of that the AI isn't that smart with building upgrade buildings, so it is the player who is benefited most with upgrades. Not logical to me since we all know that the AI cannot compete with us.

About the names, I'm sure that Ceryx can translate Armoured Spear to something exotic. That done, it only sounds dull to Japanese

Well in my opinion, somebody who is deep enough into a game to go and download a big new mod for it should be considered quite a devoted player, and a way of rewarding devotion is making it more complex so that there is more to learn and explore, and so those who play it more end up more skilled because they have learnt.

I disagree. Someone who downloads a mod has more often than not mastered most of the strategy and tactics. The AI does not provide him a challenge with the current gameply so in my eyes you reward the player by giving him a harder nut to crack. But in the end it comes down to your preference of play; strategic or tactical. And I shall warn you beforehand that the focus of this mod will be about battles and the influence they have on the strategic map.

Concept of techtree
What about this:


Level 0

"Mercenaries"
Unordered troops. Ashigaru were used to bulk an army. These units are not necessarily meant to be good troops but they can be quickly "hired" in the field to aquire more numbers. The lack of faction colours is not that bad since these units are not core troops or an essential part of the army.

"Lesser" Teppo Ashigaru
Unordered troops.

"Lesser" Yari Ashigaru
Unordered troops.


Level 1

Dojo
This building provides together with the castle level the following units:

Ashigaru were the main component numberwise in the army of a Daimyo. To somehow force this the first level only produces Ashigaru. Another way to look at this is that Ashigaru are not as loyal as Samurai, this does not only mean that they will easier but they will also fight sooner under your banner. Or in other words, when you conquered a province the Ashigaru will be the first to fight for you.

Teppo Ashigaru

Yari Ashigaru
Phalanx?


Level 2

Buddhist Temple
These buildings are placed from the beginning at a few known religious places. This limits common appearance of Warrior Monks.

Warrior Monks

Gunsmiths
I am not sure if it can be modded, but gunquality was better in the southwest (correct me if I'm wrong, but the point is that there some provinces with lesser quality guns).

Upgrade Teppo units

Dojo
This is not an upgraded version of the previous Dojo! This building provides together with the castle level the following units:

Te Yari (Samurai)
Short spear.

Nage Yari (Samurai)
Pikemen in phalanx formation.

Teppo Samurai
Lesser in numbers than the Teppo Ashigaru but far more accurate.

Yumi Samurai
Archers weren't used on a large scale anymore. These should looked upon to provide covering fire for reloading arquebusiers.

Nodachi Samurai
Questionable unit since the Nodachi wasn't that effective in combat. If it is included it will be for variety and the cool-factor.

Yari Cavalry

Horse Archers
Less and less used as bodies of infantry archers were easily able to outshoot the mounted archers.

Catapults


Level 3

Teahouse
The normal game has far too many diplomats. By limiting the production of them at capitals you automatically decrease their numbers.

Emissary

Dojo
This is not an upgraded version of the previous Barrack! The small availability of capitals (read below) also automatically limits the amount of level 3 units:

Naginata Samurai
This unit also seldomly saw the battlefield; the Naginata was not easily learned to handle. For this reason it is seen as an advanced unit.

Upgrade weapons/armour
Units trained at the capital get better equipment as they are part of the Daimyos household.

(Daimyo Bodyguard)
Not buildable, but still a different unit.

Cannons
Seldomly used.


A country with history
One thing I don't like about the TW series is how most provinces are underdeveloped at the beginning and end as fully developed at the end (at least the player provinces). To give the campaignmap more a sense of history I am thinking of making provinces developed from the start and excluding some buildings from being build.

Capitals
One of the best examples is how almost each province has level 5 castles at the end of a campaign. This is great for players who like to see this as an achievement but I see it as destroying believablity. There were capitals from which Daimyos ruled their land. To make these stand out from the normal castles they will be built from the start, are undestructable and unbuildable.

Farming
Some provinces were very fertile while others not. This can be noticed ingame by viewing income. But I believe that this sense of realism of destroyed by being able to upgrade all provinces with high-tech farming.
So from the start there will be different farming levels assigned to provinces. Fertile provinces will get a high level farming technology making it immediately clear that the province is... fertile!

Mining
I knew had it written somewhere, but I must admit it is hidden abit: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...t=38806&page=1

There were a few mines in Japan and they all existed before the Sengoku period. And as far as I know none of them were destroyed during it. So all mines will be built beforehand and cannot be upgraded or destroyed.

Roads
The idea of asphalting entire Japan also doesn't appeal to me. I also found a map which shows Nakasendo Road en the Five Highways, running between Kyoto and Edo. These will be represented by paved roads while there may be some lesser roads elsewhere, but none will be buildable. They are there to represent historical features and nothing more. Roads are not needed for faster transportation since the campaignmap is smaller than the R:TW one.
In short it boils down to providing the player the feel that he is actually ruling his clan in the Sengoku Period. Every feature that can enhance the authencity and realism should take priority. That is something that was close to being achieved in S:TW, but was lost in M:TW and R:TW. A RTS techtree that can be build in each province destroys that feel.

Edit: removed the armoured Samurai variants. Normal variants are already pretty well armoured. The quality can get better, but this is hard to visualize, so units will just get an armour and weapon improvement.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

nice thankyou , I added u to the team , the less are the buildings the best it is so less buildings and less poligons ^^....

[antisocialmunky]

Well, that is good if oyu put it that way. Good to be on the team.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I see a problem tought with non upgrades of buildings, won't be too easy the campaign if u just have to build one improved castle to get better units? I think that they should have at least some forms of upgrades , ok historicity but gameplay should be also important...

[antisocialmunky]

The original idea behind it was for a shallow tech tree to allow for the player to access units quickly and AI to do less stupid things. You could add two levels of each and let the upgraded version give valour.

[random hero]

wow, tough decision. I'd say strike it somewhere in the middle of the two.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Historical team and Stuie should discuss this topic to come to a decision .... call me in the discussion when u are to it ....we need an official building list soon...

[PROMETHEUS ts]

so fare the decided building list about walls are as follow :

level 1

Palizade wood

level 2

palizade stone and plaster

level 3

high walls with soldier's host in stone and wood

level 4

high walls with soldier's host in stone ,wood and plaster

level 5

Huge walls in stone and plaster

[Stuie]

I actually liked DJ's mostly flat tech tree idea. It would focus the game more on strategy/combat rather than building, but is that a bad thing? I particularly like this:

To give the campaignmap more a sense of history I am thinking of making provinces developed from the start and excluding some buildings from being build.

That's what we aim for in TFT/FRRE - having provinces built up to mirror reality instead of having everything start at the bottom and need development.

Definitely needs more discussion though...

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I am not against this at all, I just fear that it would not work well becouse after all the game would reduce itself to create units and go to war , without making any improvement to ur land , and if u start with a little daymio with only one province that is even poorly developed what hopes do u have? None .... Anyway a more flat building tree allows me to make less models and so is "egoistically speaking " preferred by me, but as u said it needs more discussion....

[Zenith Darksea]

I have to say, it does seem rather unlikely in RTW that in the year 270 BC some areas of Greece and Italy don't even have dirt tracks in them, or that a city like Sparta would not have the technology to train Spartan hoplites. Obviously gameplay is an issue though, but I found it frustrating enough having to wait about fifty years before I could train Triarii. About walls, I rather liked what Mundus Magnus v2 did in making stone walls available at large town level and then only making large walls available at huge city level. It made smaller towns more interesting to capture and it made the larger cities harder to defend - an element that I quite liked.

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Well I don't say that some areas won't have even hige buildings, that is up to the historians to decide , but that the not much developed lands should have a changce after all , or not?

[antisocialmunky]

Well, I think we should limit the building of economic things and growth influencing farms to keep provences different.

[Manji]

What about starting provinces? That would mean that a small clan (supposing it started with two provinces at minimum) would have a region for military development and another for farming while large clans (supposing they started with 4 or +provinces) would have likewise one province for military development and the others for farming). That would clearly make an inbalance... or is that the whole goal?

[PROMETHEUS ts]

I had an idea , what about making specialization paths ....


for example if you have a choice to build up tree buolding types...... if u choose one u may specialize into a certin tyope of units so gainng the ability to recruit an advanced unit fo the type , for example samurai archers , or if u build another one may be u renounce to this evolutuon favouring may be advanced spearman training of ashigaru troops , cheaper but more effective than the previouses? that would allow players with different strategical solutions and decisions to allow him to develope his own clan style of combat ....

[Manji]

If one is to make the game "believable" then every average province (by average I mean large) should be able to provide all types of units while smaller provinces could provide one "rare" unit type and farmland. Perhaps a good choice would be to limit certain provinces to "farming" status only while letting the player develop the "military" provinces.

[antisocialmunky]

I think the best way to go is use the historical records to zone out the Dominant Economic Activities for Japan and to make it so you can upgrade the income from poor farming provences but not make it economical to do something like that. Same with merchant levels. Roads though should be preplaced and indestructable.

Since the game takes place over the course of about 100 years or so and infrastructure existed before that time, you shouldn't be able to develop every town into a massive city.

[AngusH]

The only thing I disagree with is the ability to train warrior monks with the construction of a buddhist temple. I feel that buddhist monks should only be hireable via mercenaries, as in real life the warrior monks were from the larger, independant temples, not the temples located inside cities.

Of course, you have to keep the temples in the game, but perhaps assign them a property of increasing created unit's stats in someway?

[PROMETHEUS ts]

We could perhaps make the warrior monks as mercenaries recruitable only after you build local temples , showing ur fath itn their religion.... so for example if you build a temple in region x then you would be able to recruit the famous warrior monks from region y....