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Thread: Proposed Amendment and Senatorial reform.

  1. #1

    Default Proposed Amendment and Senatorial reform.

    The proposed part of the Syntagma to be amended.
    Civitates Class - Curators / Senatorii / Patrician / Civitate
    Civitates Class
    Civitates are all those who and are contributing members of the forum, that is, have shown themselves to contribute meaningfully to the Forum. They can call into questions any decision by any of the aforementioned officials and can by popular vote have it overturned although an Imperator or the Consuls unanimously can veto this action. They have, and should not be reluctant to use, the power to appeal any decision and have it heard by the members of their class, the Civitates. Civitates also have the following four sub-classes, three of which have the priviledge to Patronise new Civitates:
    Civitates - Standard Civitates without the priviledge to Patronise new Civitates.
    Patricians - Civitates in good standing who have been civitates three months or longer without receiving an official warning.
    Senatorii - Some of the original founding TWC members and subsequent ex-staff members.
    Curators - TWC government members. Consuls, Praetors and Quaestors.
    Urbanis Legio - TWC frontline moderators. Police force to maintain order in our forums.

    Civitates are subject to the following criterion.
    Any member (with 100 posts or more and) deemed to be a contributing member in good standing may be nominated and patronized by any Curator, Senatorii or Patrician. Only Civitates of the Patrician, Senatorii or Curator level have the right to patronise. Any members who directly request said status (by posting asking to be nominated) will be denied it outright. The Curators will review the prospective Civitate's posts and vote for their possible ascendancy into Civitate status. The vote will be in the form of a majority, and upon approval the new Civitate will hold all rights as granted by letters patent, a vote in the Curia and a voice in His Forum.

    The possible Civitate will then be asked to explain in detail, and in his own words, his duties and privileges as a Civitate in PM form to any Consul or Praetor. Even if the vote passes, if his explanation is not satisfactory he will be denied the post. If within 240 hours of his promotion, said Civitate is found wanting, that is, conducting himself contrary to the principles of his post, he can be immediately demoted.

    Basic Civitates are marked as 'TWC Civitates'

    Patricians
    Any Civitate that remains in good standing with no official warnings (successful appeals to the Trinunal are not considered warnings) after three months active tenure can be be elevated to the level of Patrician by sending a PM to a Consul asking for this change. The Hexagon Council win then review the application and vote on the change to status. Patricians are marked as 'TWC Patricians'

    Any Patrician that receives a warning will lose the right to patronise new Civitates for a two month duration, unless the warning is overturned by appealing to the Tribunal. If a Patrician fails to make a worthwhile patronage three times, he can be demoted to basic Civitate status if the Consuls are in agreement.

    Senatorii
    The Senatorii represent some of the oldest founding members and ex-staff of the TWC community. Any Consul, Praetor or Quaestor who leaves office will join the ranks of the Senatorii.

    Patronising new members
    Any Patrician, Senatorii or Curator and can patronise new Civitates. No member may have more than six clients directly under them.
    Changes to be made-

    - Patrician and Civitates ranks merged into Senator. With so many civitates becoming patricians they will soon outnumber civitates,merging the two into senators simplifies the system.

    - Patronage system tuned to include Patron accountability.

    - Senatorii rank changed into Honoratus and the rank made attainable by both Imperial and Curial appointment.

    - Staff names and terms updated.

    - Other minor changes and latin grammar added and corrected.



    Proposal:

    Senatorial Class

    Senator Class
    Senatores are all those who are contributing members of the forum. They can call into questions any decision by any of the aforementioned officials and can by popular vote have it overturned (although any Network Administrator or the Imperator acting alone, or the Consuls acting unanimously, can veto any such action). They have, and should not be reluctant to use, the power to appeal any decision and have it heard by the members of their class, the Senatores. Senatores have the following three sub-classes:
    Senatores Pedarii (singular Senator Pedarius) – Given the privilege of Senator rank by both Imperial and Curial staff appointment, Senatores Pedarii have the right to vote in the Curia and take part in discussions if they so wish. After a three-month period without warnings, they are awarded the right to patronize new Senatores and recommend them to the Curatores for a vote. Senatorii Pedarii are marked "Senator" or "Pedarius" or "Senator Pedarius” They carry the “Senator” Banner
    Honorati (singular Honoratus) - Members of the community who have done substantial service for the community. Senatores can be recommended and voted in as Honorati by the Curia, while former Curatores may be given the rank by the Imperator. Honorati are marked "Honoratus".
    Curatores (singular Curator) - TWC staff members: Imperatores, Consules, Praefecti Praetorio, Praetoriani, and Praetores. Curatores are marked according to their rank.

    Senator Badge:
    Honoratus Badge:

    Senators are subject to the following criteria.
    Any member (with 100 posts or more and) deemed to be a contributing member in good standing may be nominated and patronized by any Curator or Honoratus who has not received a warning for at least two months, or any Senator Pedarius who has held that rank for at least two months and has not received a warning for at least two months. (Warnings overturned according to Curatorial procedure are disregarded for this purpose and any other.) When a member is patronized, he shall explain in detail and in his own words his duties and privileges as a Senator in PM form to The Common community staff. Both Imperial and Curial staff will review the prospective Senator's posts and explanation and conduct a majority vote to decide whether to grant the member Senator status. Any Senator who is suspended from the forums by a Curator due to misconduct will be stripped of all status unless he passes a revote of the Curatores. Honorati and Senators with patronage rights will have an ostrakon initiated against them, however in extreme cases the Curatores have the right to demote a senator if his crimes were deemed a danger to the forums.

    Patronization
    Any Senator who is eligible to patronize new Senatores must request the right to patronize from the Syntagma curator and if granted may then nominate a maximum of one Senator every two months. A Senator is not legally bound to his patron, but it is the informal responsibility of the patron to make sure his clients behave in a respectable manner and uphold the rules of the constitution. Clients of a demoted Senator may request another patron or remain the client of the demoted Senator in name only and be independent of patrons in the eyes of the Constitution. A senator who continually nominates bad candidates can have his patronage rights suspended by the syntagma curator.

    Written by Jacobus Maximus and Simetrical.


    Banners Made By Manji
    Last edited by Belisarius; September 26, 2005 at 04:38 PM.
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  2. #2

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    I like it. No objections.
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  3. #3

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    Looks good. Only problem ...

    Any Senator who is eligible to patronize new Senatores must request the right to patronize from the Syntagma curator and if granted may then nominate a maximum of one Senator every two months.
    What, exactly, does this mean? I go and ask Smack if I can nominate Member A, and if he says yes ... Member A is made a civitate, or I can send Member A's paragraph to the staff?

    Why is asking the Syntagma Curator necessary at all?

    Why have a maximum of one senator every two months?

    By the way, graphically, the font with Senator/Honoratus is off compared to the other banner's fonts...

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  4. #4
    Søren's Avatar ܁
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    I like it on the whole. Good job.


    Any Senator who is eligible to patronize new Senatores must request the right to patronize from the Syntagma curator and if granted may then nominate a maximum of one Senator every two months.
    However, I utterly disagree with a two month per nomination limit. To such an extent that I would vote against the whole bill, on merit of this one thing.

    To my mind, it is not atall necessary, and just adds an extra impediment to the patronisation of new Civitates. I also think it reduces the status of Patricianship, members like myself have waited three months for this honour and then find that we may only be allowed to patronise once every two months.

    EDIT : Written before Justinian

  5. #5

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    Any Senator who is eligible to patronize new Senatores must request the right to patronize from the Syntagma curator and if granted may then nominate a maximum of one Senator every two months.
    No, since we dont have the patrician rank anymore. In order to be given the right to patronise you have to apply once after two months to the syntagma curator.

    Its the same as before almost:

    Any Civitate that remains in good standing with no official warnings (successful appeals to the Trinunal are not considered warnings) after three months active tenure can be be elevated to the level of Patrician by sending a PM to a Consul asking for this change.
    However, I utterly disagree with a two month per nomination limit. To such an extent that I would vote against the whole bill, on merit of this one thing.
    This is a hot debate. I saw a compramise, have an unlimited amount of clients but be given the ability to patronise only one a month, thus if you see someone hand him over to someone you know etc or wait. So, no limit but you still are careful who to patronise.

    Personally I want it down to a month.....

    Why have a maximum of one senator every two months?
    One Senator PER person


    By the way, graphically, the font with Senator/Honoratus is off compared to the other banner's fonts...
    I like the banners, they rock.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  6. #6
    wilpuri's Avatar It Gets Worse.
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    Some initial thoughts:

    Both Imperial and Curial staff will review the prospective Senator's posts and explanation and conduct a majority vote to decide whether to grant the member Senator status.
    Who are imperial and curial staff?

    Any Senator who is suspended from the forums by a Curator due to misconduct will be stripped of all status unless he passes a revote of the Curatores.
    I don't like the idea of civitates being stripped of their status with out an official ostrakon. Temporary suspension if they are acting fools, sure, but I believe this must be conducted with an official ostrakon. They must be allowed to defend themselves infront of their peers.

    however in extreme cases the Curatores have the right to demote a senator if his crimes were deemed a danger to the forums.
    This little baby needs to be defined more clearly. What does "danger to the forums" encompass?

    Patronization
    Any Senator who is eligible to patronize new Senatores must request the right to patronize
    from the Syntagma curator and if granted may then nominate a maximum of one Senator every two months.

    Personally I would like see a more polished version, which does not have to go constant change and amending, to be ironed out.
    I disagree with this. What is the point with the time limit? Is there one?
    The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.

    ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture

  7. #7

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    Who are imperial and curial staff?
    SUlla has a thread about it... it was discussed before, I'm too lazy to find it tonight.

    I don't like the idea of civitates being stripped of their status with out an official ostrakon. Temporary suspension if they are acting fools, sure, but I believe this must be conducted with an official ostrakon. They must be allowed to defend themselves infront of their peers.
    Only those on in their first two months, I dont think its much to ask for them to behave.. Anyone over the two months HAS to have an ostrakon unliees he does something like hack or delete the site.

    This little baby needs to be defined more clearly. What does "danger to the forums" encompass?
    See above/ :sweatingb
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
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  8. #8
    Søren's Avatar ܁
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    I think that we should keep the Patrician distinction as it is.

    It's working very well, there's no need to change it.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilpuri
    Some initial thoughts:


    Who are imperial and curial staff?
    I assume Imperial staff are staff appointed by the Imperator and Curial staff are staff appointed by the Curia (Quaestors).


    I don't like the idea of civitates being stripped of their status with out an official ostrakon. Temporary suspension if they are acting fools, sure, but I believe this must be conducted with an official ostrakon. They must be allowed to defend themselves infront of their peers.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacobus Maximus
    This is a hot debate. I saw a compramise, have an unlimited amount of clients but be given the ability to patronise only one a month, thus if you see someone hand him over to someone you know etc or wait. So, no limit but you still are careful who to patronise.
    I can see the point behind this but it's still too high ... maybe two senators per senator every month?

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  10. #10
    Fabolous's Avatar Power breeds Arrogance
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    I support all of this, with the exception of the maximum of one senator every two months per person. A simple limit of 11, seems far better to me. This would cause me to vote no.
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  11. #11

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    I think that we should keep the Patrician distinction as it is.

    It's working very well, there's no need to change it.

    There is, its pointless why so people can get another rank?

    Its yet another rank which further complicates our system and the majority of people are or will be patricians so they will form the majority which is silly. Simplify the system and make it easier to adapt. Merge them into Senators, this is one part of the amendment I will stand by to the end Or forget the whole thing. Its only a change in name, patricians exist but not in name. Kinda.


    The Patronage is something which I dont totally agree with but I DONT support the restrictions. Thats why this is open for debate.
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  12. #12

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    The banners were the best I could come up with since I didn't knew which font was originally used.
    Yes, it was me doing the banners, GM is a ***** and couldn't even say that it was me...
    Last edited by Simetrical; September 26, 2005 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Filter evasion
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  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Manji
    The banners were the best I could come up with since I didn't knew which font was originally used.
    Yes, it was me doing the banners, GM is a ***** and couldn't even say that it was me...

    Yes I did! :laughing:
    Last edited by Simetrical; September 26, 2005 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Continuity edit: response to edited content
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  14. #14

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    Nothing wrong with the banners - just that having the Senators have one font and then the Cohortes/Quaestors/Prefects/Consuls/Imperator have a different one is a bit inconsisent... so if Manji can find that font...

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    Lord Rahl's Avatar Behold the Beard
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    Perfect, absolutely perfect. I've wanted something like this for some time. Brilliant!

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    I don't understand why everything needs to be reformed so drastically over such tiny issues. If you want to smooth things out, than do so in a smooth way. I know the Curia likes drama and heaploads of bureaucracy, but I don't see the relevance of this all. If you don't like a certain aspect of the syntagma, then ammend it, you don't need to flip everything around all the time. I find this change of a too big magnitude and think this will bring more confusion than clarity, so I would vote nay.

  17. #17
    Seleukos's Avatar Hell hath no fury
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    I dont neccisarily agree with the one Senator every two months idea. I would support Justinians idea of two senators per senator every month. Two months is a very long time, especially on the internet and when certain civitates have waited two or three months only to learn they can only patronize one member per two months, that is a bit stringent.

    Other than that, I like it.

  18. #18
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    I like it other than problems stated by Seleukos and wilpuri, that is the limit between the patronisation rather than a straight limit of numbers or simply no limit (staff'll shoot down anyone unsuited surely?) and the automatic ostrakon.
    Actually, a third problem: this text.
    by any Curator or Honoratus who has not received a warning for at least two months, or any Senator Pedarius who has held that rank for at least two months and has not received a warning for at least two months.
    This is far more restrictive than the current Patrician rules, no matter how it may sound, because of the word "and"; you need to have been a senator for two months and not received warning, but it resets when you receive one? Far too strict.

  19. #19
    MoROmeTe's Avatar For my name is Legion
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    If it ain't broke, why fix it?

    The current system seems to be standing up quite well. Or is it just me?


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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    There are certainly a couple of areas that could be reformed, and some are adressed in this Bill, along with some things I object to strongly enough to make me vote no. There are also a few simple bureacratic bits...

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