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Thread: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

  1. #41

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Romano-Dacis View Post
    Well there will always be the "Bosnian pyramids" type of revisionism, but it's no worse than people who believe the barbarians lived in caves or something, or who believe that the Romans or Chinese lived in some sci-fi techno metropolis.
    O cauta cu lampa ca dracul...... nu sa lasa

    (search with lamp devil no will giveup)

    In my opinion RD it really depends which "barbarian" we look at. I think for example Celts in some circles are a bit over stated at some sort of tree hugging society of equality. Illyrians for example are almost all together forgotten and a lot of the things from the Thracian tribes are all together taken for granted or claimed as Greek.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  2. #42

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Romano-Dacis View Post
    Well there will always be the "Bosnian pyramids" type of revisionism, but it's no worse than people who believe the barbarians lived in caves or something, or who believe that the Romans or Chinese lived in some sci-fi techno metropolis.
    Which kind of extremism is worse?

    this:
    http://www.angelfire.com/journal/dacians/

    or

    19th century "rome was light and everywhere else was darkness"
    Have a question about China? Get your answer here.

  3. #43

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by bushbush View Post
    Which kind of extremism is worse?
    That's like asking if it's better to die of cancer or AIDS.
    The problem is the study of barbarian Europe is far less developed than that of Rome or Greece, so it is also far more vulnerable to groups with outlandish claims.
    Last edited by Romano-Dacis; February 25, 2010 at 05:59 PM.

  4. #44

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Romano-Dacis View Post
    That's like asking if it's better to die of cancer or AIDS.
    i will agree people who believe in this source :
    http://www.angelfire.com/journal/dacians/

    are worse than AIDS.
    Have a question about China? Get your answer here.

  5. #45

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    On the other hand it's perfectly legitimate to say the Celts were outstanding metal-workers, or that the Dacians had gone beyond the status of mere chiefdoms and had produced a consolidated state.

  6. #46
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    In my opinion RD it really depends which "barbarian" we look at. I think for example Celts in some circles are a bit over stated at some sort of tree hugging society of equality. Illyrians for example are almost all together forgotten and a lot of the things from the Thracian tribes are all together taken for granted or claimed as Greek.
    Perhaps, but some cultures, such as Thracian and Persian, might only view as barbarians from Greek in empty name. Clearly, Greek descriptions of both cultures, especially after Pelopponesian War, suggest Greeks did not really believe both cultures were "barbarian" in reality.
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Romano-Dacis View Post
    Well there will always be the "Bosnian pyramids" type of revisionism, but it's no worse than people who believe the barbarians lived in caves or something, or who believe that the Romans or Chinese lived in some sci-fi techno metropolis.
    If a Roman family lived in this,


    often watered and heated, while the Celt lived in this,



    makes it a no brainer to say which was more advanced, or whether the Celts did see those high-rise buildings as a sci-fi metropolis.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude greater than
    the animating contest for freedom, go
    home from us in peace. We seek not
    your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch
    down and lick the hand that feeds you,
    and may posterity forget that ye were
    our countrymen."
    -Samuel Adams

  8. #48

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Romano-Dacis View Post
    On the other hand it's perfectly legitimate to say the Celts were outstanding metal-workers, or that the Dacians had gone beyond the status of mere chiefdoms and had produced a consolidated state.
    actually i think people who use sources like these:
    http://www.angelfire.com/journal/dacians/

    are far worse. Those who look down on barbarians are guilty of academic arrogance. Those who use sources like "angelfire" are outright idiots.
    Have a question about China? Get your answer here.

  9. #49

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...64#post6844264





    Roma Victrix

    Anyway I think the "barbarian" cultures in ancient times are often given a bad rep. I don't consider any of them "inferior" but rather developed in different ways. Thracians for example influenced the use of peltast and cavalry in ancient Greek warfare. Their various armors and weaponry were used across the ancient world. They traded wine and gold and created spectacular artifacts which we're just finding within the last hundred years. Gods like Ares, Dionisus, and Apollo originated amongst the Thracians.

    http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...&aqi=&aql=&oq=
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  10. #50

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    If a Roman family lived in this,


    often watered and heated, while the Celt lived in this,



    makes it a no brainer to say which was more advanced, or whether the Celts did see those high-rise buildings as a sci-fi metropolis.
    Actually that roundhouse you're showing looks more like British bronze age (the wicker walls and steepness of the roof) - even the iron age examples are much larger and solidly-made and would have have been at least as comfortable as the constricted little insulae your typical city-dwelling Roman pleb lived in. And you would be amazed to see some of the Gaulish - "Celtic" home reconstructions in France and Switzerland. I was. Some almost look 17th century with fully wooden floors and walls.

    But you are right: large-scale Meditteranean buildings and cities would have dropped a Gaul-German-Britons jaw, and hammered home the message: 'resistance is futile' as well as 'why resist at all?" and got the desired response from native kinglets and aristocrats: "ooh, I want one!"

  11. #51

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by 6644kp View Post
    Not possible since Sumerian civilization is upto 3000 years older than Egypt's. Trust me Sumeria is first.

    6000 BC
    Archaeologists date Nabta to 6500 BC, it's in Egypt, albeit before the Pharoahs - but that's irrelevant, my point was more that these structures, and the bronze age astromical charts associated with the cultures that built them definitely predate Graeco-Roman influence.
    Last edited by Blarni; February 26, 2010 at 02:56 AM.

  12. #52

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Oops double post - is there a 'delete' button I'm not seeing.

  13. #53

    Default Re: "Barbarian No More": Historical Revision in Barbarian Europe

    Quote Originally Posted by Seleucos of Olympia View Post
    Those observatories predate the Celts, and it's not clear what the extent of their function was. It appears to have been religious/calendrical, but we can't know much more without any written or even oral records. We still don't know if Stonehenge was aligned with the summer or winter solstice, and whether it was used with the sun or the moon. While there may have been a north-central European influence on some constellations (Ursa Major and Minor, Draco, Hercules), the rest most probably originated in Greece/Mesopotamia, and it was in those two areas (first the latter, then the former) that astronomy was developed as a science. To talk of scientists before the first millennium BCE is an improper use of the term (some would say even then we can only talk about philosophers).
    Sure, but they were raised by people whose descendants would be those categorized as "celts" by 18th century anitquarians. And true, the precise use of these henges found right across northern and eastern Europe are open to conjecture - but what isn't are the skills and intellectual class necessary merely for their construction. And you are also right on your last point - 'scientist' is a word far too loaded with modern connotations, but beyond philosophers (of which contemporary Greek writers like Clement and Diodorus Siculus credited 'Celts' as having plenty of) there was a discernable intellectual life of astrologers, lawyers, artisans, medical practitioners, etc. - in fact Irish doctors would be renowned across (admittedly mostly northern) Europe into the time of Charlemagne and the Gaelic school of medicine would continue until its supression in the 18th, 19th centuries. All medicine starts as folk medicine, the Graeco-Romans simply catalogued their witchdoctery into a form we're comfortable with.
    Last edited by Blarni; February 26, 2010 at 02:55 AM.

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