FC:Fight one Sepulveda vs De Las Casas

[Garbarsardar]

Friends, this is the first fight hosted in the FC. After the end of the debate, please cast your vote. I remind you that this thread is for the duellists only (Garbarsardar and imb39). Any new challenges can be posted in the main FC thread here , where you can also find the rules.
Vote and comments on the first fight here


The Context of the Debate, 1492-1542



From the time Columbus landed in Hispaniola in 1492 to 1550-1551, when the Valladolid debate took place, the Spaniards had been divided in regards to the rationality and Christianization of the Indians. Disagreement, nevertheless, had not stopped the Spanish monarchy from taking concrete measures. Only a year after the sermon by Montesinos in 1511, the Spanish crown issued a series of laws intended to regulate Indian-Spaniard relations. Shortly after the Dominican condemned his compatriots’ brutal treatment of the Caribbean Indians, the monarchy promulgated the Laws of Burgos, the first concrete regulations to govern Indian-Spaniard relations. The laws, which were influenced by Las Casas, stipulated that Spaniards who benefited from forced Indian labor, or the encomienda system, would diligently see that their subjects be properly instructed in the Holy Faith. Novel as the laws may have been, however, they soon fell into oblivion; one thing was to order the encomenderos to comply, but an entirely different matter was to force them to abide by the law. In this sense, Montesinos had preached, the crown had proclaimed the Laws of Burgos, but the plight of the Indians had remained relatively the same.10

Then came the 1537 papal bull, which though proclaiming the Indians rational beings, effectively gave the Church, and for that matter the Spanish monarchy, supreme rights in the New World. In 1493, Pope Alexander VI had granted Spain general dominion in America, in the process empowering the crown to carry out the evangelizing mission in Spanish America. In his 1537 Sublimis Deus, Pope Paul III went further by confirming the Indians’ capability to understand and receive the Christian faith. But the papal bull was not only a dogma enunciated by an influential institution, the Catholic Church, but also a politically-motivated strategy. By proclaiming that the Indians were fit to receive the faith, the pope essentially legitimized Spain’s presence and religious duty in the New World.11

Neither the Laws of Burgos nor the Sublimis Deus, however, had the impact, in Spain and in Spanish America, of the 1542 New Laws. As with the Laws of Burgos and the Sublimis Deus, Las Casas was crucial to the passage of these new regulations. Shortly before 1542, he had written extensively to the Council of the Indies, the supreme body regulating Spanish-Indian relations, condemning the encomenderos’ treatment of the American natives. For example, in 1539 Las Casas had horrified the royal court with his The Devastation of the Indies, a highly descriptive, but also somewhat exaggerated account of Spanish cruelty in the Caribbean, in the process greatly influencing the court’s deliverance of the 1542 regulations. The laws were designed to abolish the encomienda system within a generation by outlawing its perpetuation through inheritance. This, in turn, had shaken early Spanish colonial society, a world deeply embedded in the encomienda system, to its very roots.12 Such was the background to the debate of Valladolid; the scene was now set for the actual theoretical debate between Las Casas and Sepúlveda.


The fight has begun.

[Garbarsardar]

Dear Friends, we are here today to examine a grave matter. A matter of the uttermost importance, not only for our Christian ethics and the the teachings of science, but for the prosperity of our Great Country. In front of you, stands this man Bartholomeo De Las Casas. He stands handling fallacy in one hand, and blasphemy with the other. I intend to show that these accusations are true.

As we all know the Rule of our Great Country, extends to the rich and hopefully prosperous territories of the west. This rule is often contested by the native inhabitants, and adding insult to the injury, lately from some members of our community deemed knowledgable both in Theology and in Science.

What is their idea? That the savage natives of these lands deserve an equal place under the domain of Spanish law and the Rule of our Holy father, the allmighty God.

It is an idea fallacious and more than this, dangerous. For those whom my opponent champions are not men but wild beasts. It was the well respected Aristotles who said that what is different between man and animal is the governance of logic upon passion -in the case of man- and of passion upon logic-in the case of animal. Need I say more on this? We are all aware of numerous accounts on the daily life of those creatures. We all heard stories about their immorality, how it happens in the open and how they consumate their passion in the most embarassing manner, in common view and without remorse. Is this an attribute of men? Man is plagued by the Original Sin and will be until the second coming of our Lord. Is their any evidence in their manners that they are aware of their immorality? Or is their passion so strong in them that logic fails and crumbles. Creatures without morality and devoid of logic cannot be considered human.

I will give to my opponent the chance to reply to this, before I proceed. I also request that you let him proceed without interruption. Contain your wrath, and let his words be a solid proof, that befriending those creatures can damage a feeble intellect.

[imb39]

My fellow friends please forgive my lateness. I arrive here from the New World, given to us by God through his Eminence Pope Alexander VI. Our task, as a Christian Kingdom was nad is to spread the Word of God and allow Jesus to embrace all within his arms.

To be accused of heresy makes this task a painful one. I, a humble servant of God, was ordained at Santa Domingo in 1510. As you are all aware this is our finest city in Hispaniola.

Will any here disagree that our task is to spread the Word, to educate those who do not know. Are we to condemn others because they do not Know? Many here have clearly placed God behind their own prejudices. Galations 4.8 and 4.9:

“However at that time, not knowing God, you were in bondage to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, why do you turn back again to the weak and miserable elemental principles, to which you desire to be in bondage all over again?”

If any heresy is being made, it is not by me!

Now let me examine the details set forth.

Are the Indians animals? Is there evidence of logic over passion? Yes there is!

Rational thought is in evidence in their worship of gods. They have erred – that there is no doubt – in not choosing the one true God. But neither did the Romans or the Greeks. Do you consider them animals? Well do you? Clearly not - you have used Aristotle as the basis of your arguments. I will not belittle this great thinker. His tradition, born in Ancient Greece, has influenced – if not driven – thinking in civilised Europe. It is a natural philosophy that is central to the work we carry out in the world. Yet, let us examine the peoples who gave birth to philosophy and the Indians.

The Greeks celebrate perversions that would make all in here shudder. They were not in the Knowledge of our Lord and did not know better. They were, for want of a better word, children. Practicing acts that I cannot mention, they repel me so much. These perversions were not just limited to physical acts by both the Greeks and Romans but by their gods. Do we call these peoples savages? Do we call them animals? No! They knew no better. When the Lord’s word spread through the land – people changed. They grew from children to adults. They threw away their idols and indecent acts and embraced the Word.

Let us now look at the Indians. Yes, they perform acts which we find repulsive. Yes, they worship many gods. I deny none of those claims. The myths that involve the gods are innocent. Where as the Greeks and Romans celebrate indecency and criminality – the Indians celebrate virtue. Well as much virtue as is possible by people who do not know God. The Indians are children. Many have yet to learn – but some have and lead righteous lives. Like the Romans in the past, they have embraced the Lord. No sir! They are not animals but children. Children who want to learn. Children that the Pontiff, himself, has commanded us to enlighten. They are ripe for conversion for many reasons. Firstly, as I have shown, they are capable of rational thought. Secondly because they are innocent. They show less duplicity in their heart. Thirdly, converting Indians when they are free is much easier - an attribute that attests and appeals to their rational thought. Finally, many have already been converted - without the need for coersion.

:sweatingb

[Garbarsardar]

My esteemed colleague, proposes that Indians are children.

No sir! They are not animals but children. Children who want to learn. Children that the Pontiff, himself, has commanded us to enlighten.

Well, if they actually were children then we would also have to punish them as this is one of the basic tools of education. Since there has been a misguided attempt to implicate rumours on ancient Greece, unsubstanciated by any source there is at our disposal-permit me to use the Spartan paradigm on treating unsubordinate children and malicious adults. Is it not also known that Spartans prefered to kill a child at birth, then to let a crippled contaminate their community.

And if they were children how can ther be talk of property and ownership and self governabce. Do children own houses? Or land? Or are they given the right to decide for their fate?

This alone would be a deviation from all civilized principle we are aware of.

But, friends, I submit to you that these creatures could not be equaled to a child. Children are innocent and free of sins;obviously they err and often have to be corrected. But what is the limit of their faults?
These "children", torture their peers in the most cruel way. These children even commit Human sacrifice and there are reports that they do not hesitate to feast on human flesh. These children are the same that poured molten gold in the mouths of his Majesty's soldiers and emmissaries.

Are they to be forgiven or even commented for all those sins? Are we to respect their insult on laws human and divine alike?

Let this poor misguided person answer this!

[imb39]

Snr Sepulveda,

Yet again you astonish me. You try to condemn the Indian as an animal, yet now you are happy to regard him as a child! It surely shows God’s wisdom in keeping you safely hidden in Spain rather than letting your ignorance damage the Plan provided us by his Holiness. You shame Spain and the Church with your simplistic retreats into the past. But go there you will – and so will I!

I find it curious that you rely on the practices of Sparta to justify your ideas. Do you seriously advocate the killing of children now! Do you know what the Lord Jesus commands? I have my doubts – yet you call me a heretic… Clearly you feel that God’s power is limited; that he, himself, cannot reach into their hearts. Is this the God you profess to love? It is not the God that our beloved King follows. It is not the God that our Holiness follows and it is not the God that I follow.

It is our God given duty to spread the Word. I have always found that the ears of a living person work much more effectively that those of a dead person. Perhaps you could clarify that position for me – how are we to bring forth new converts to the Lord God if they are all killed?

I have already pointed out that the Indians are ripe for conversion. I, myself have seen conversions take place. I have also seen the damage done by the practices that delight you so. It is pains me when policies that you demand drive these lost souls from God – yet I have seen it!

I have seen Indians mistreated and burnt alive. The consequences of our actions are too terrible to behold. I knew an Indian who was quite important in their society – yet another example of their logic. His eyes were opening to the love and the power of the Lord. He was also sentenced to death. As he was preparing for his death he was asked to accept Christianity. His reply saddens me to this day; he asked if he would see the white man in heaven. Upon hearing the answer that he would his response was, ‘Then I shall not be a Christian, for I would not again go to a place where I must find men so cruel.’

Our very hatred of this man has condemned him to eternal damnation. His damnation is our damnation. We failed the Lord; instead of love we show hate; instead of compassion we show cold indifference.

Now, you want to base our work on that of unbelievers. Spartans have a noble tradition as part of the heritage that we all enjoy but that does not mean that we follow blindly what they did. What would you have us do next? They encourage their children to steal and punish them if caught. Perhaps that is how you have raised your children.

There is too much love of Greece and not of our Lord. You preach heresy. It is always good to know about Greece, but it is necessary to follow God. You must look into your soul; can you not see how far you have left our Lord’s teachings? Yet again I must inform you what the Bible says, 1 Corinthians 13:11 tells us,

“When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things.”

I have seen this verse in action. I have seen Indians who, as I have already conceded, act immorally BUT I have also seen the change! As they are converted, others see the change. They become educated – they grow into adults. See - the Word is powerful, the Word is right!

I suggest that you put away you heresy and study the Lord’s Word. For there is true wisdom and pray that your heart and your mind opens once more to the eternal truth that you once enjoyed.

You have a lot to learn from these people. Their love for Jesus is profound and their understanding is deepening all the time. Further proof, if proof be needed, of the power of the Lord!

Now you talk of land and ownership. I am glad you have brought that up, for nothing changes. I have already shown that coercion impedes our work. Every failure to convert is a stain on Spain. Now let us look at their claim to the land.

In their behaviour they have most certainly displayed an ability to create and follow laws that equal, if not exceed, those created by ancient cultures. Their customs, too, are also highly developed. They are clearly superior to civilisations in the past such as the Babylonians. They display advances in social structures similar to Europe now. They have formed their own kingdoms and even operate a similar system of making other nations vassals. Would we march and take the land from England? Would we take France? No, of course not! We each have our natural borders and I would detest anyone who takes the land from the King.
Within their nations people perform different jobs. Some farm land, others sell fine jewellery – there are a variety of professions performed. On key levels they function as we do, both at the state level – they form treaties – and at the personal level – they are skilled in a number of professions. Children are brought up to respect authority and tradition – is that any different from Spain? They even provide for the old and the widowed – do we do the same for our people? Clearly they are not savages, but a civilised people who have a lot to learn from us, and as such entitled to what is theirs.

On personal levels, they perform their own marriage ceremonies with either the King or a representative to legalise it; they seldom eat or drink to excess; they record the deaths and births of people – and have an accurate account of how many live within their borders. During harsh years, they share their provisions and have such respect for property that none dare take fruit from a tree that is behind a wall. Does that happen under a Greek, Roman or, dare I say it, Spanish monarch? They are also capable of constructing great roads – two highways snake through the mountains in Peru that shame any that I have seen in Europe. Not even in Italy, have I seen such constructions! The farm land is supported by a system of irrigation that matches any found in Europe. No Sir, the land is theirs.

As their lands have been pillaged and people attacked, is it any wonder that they respond? If armies from France enter the realms of our beloved Kingdom, would any of us welcome them with open arms? That is what is being suggested! It is in fact another example that they are civilised – animals do not make nations!

[Garbarsardar]

Friends, the man that stood before you seemed to speak words of wisdom, words for the divine design and the will of God. But what is he bringing to us: Musings about civilized savages, misguided attempts to dress the wolves in sheep's clothing. It has been said that those who can shall heed to the warnings:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The first point of this man was that the Indians are mistreated.

Does the sheppard mistreat the sheep? Or the fisherman mistreats the fruits of the sea? Are you seriously accusing the vessels of our King of malice? The land was given to us by the Holy See and dominion was granted to Spain over all that lives there. Should Spain fail to comply with the wish of the Lord? Yes it our duty to convert them. Convert them by love where possible. By sword where need arises. Has not God spoken to thee about this already?

Proverbs 30:11-14: "There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."

Or do you denounce the holy writings?

Isaiah 1:4: "Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward."

Our Church has gone to great pain in order to deal with heretics and worshippers of the demon. No one in his right mind would characterize the Holy Inquisition as unecessary cruel.(‘

Then I shall not be a Christian, for I would not again go to a place where I must find men so cruel.

’ ) What would you have our soldiers and people do? Yes sometimes their ways are cruel. Cruel but necessary. As were the ways of the Lord in Sodoma and Gomorrah.

So decide Bartholomeo: Do you stand with the Church and our father the Pope or against it? Because you cannot pretend to be a man of faith and yet condemn those who use all their means to spread it:"But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." (1 Corinthians 10:20-21)

Remember:

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Some of these creatures are capable of denouncing the demons they obeyed until now, and those shall be spared. The rest should be brought to the Lord by any means necessary, for there is no reason to win their hearts and minds if their soul does not belong to the Church.

The second point of the man was that these savages are somewhat civilized!

Does civilization extends to human sacrifice Bartholomeo? In all their forsaken land there is no evidence of wisdom, but just the tricks that experience provides even to animals. Civilization is the advance in science and in knoledge and in virtue. Where are their books then? Where is their virtue in copulating in the open? Is not their practice sinful? And here is the way that adultery should be addressed.

21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Civilization is reflected upon the deeds of men. And the deeds of the natives so far cannot persuade us that they are civilized. They are characterized by unreasonable violence amongst themselves and murderous acts upon other tribes.Do not forget: The rule of the Spanish law and of the Church is also there to protect them from the practice of slaughter amongst themselves.

His third point was about land and ownership


My Lords, I implore you to forgive him for the words he uttered. Please aknowledge the fact that he comes from a long journey, and he has not adjusted yet to his presence here. I know that treason is the word that comes to everyone's mind.
Bartholomeo, I ask you now in front of the Fathers to denounce your previous statement:

"No Sir, the land is theirs.As their lands have been pillaged and people attacked, is it any wonder that they respond? If armies from France enter the realms of our beloved Kingdom, would any of us welcome them with open arms?"

The land belongs to the King of Spain. This is a fact that cannot be disputed, as it is stipulated in the descision of our great father His Eminence Alexander IV. It is heresy towards the Holy See and treason towards the King to proclaim that a God-given land does not belong to the Spanish rule.
So, Bartholomeo since I believe that you wish to leave these chambers as a free man, repent for your insult to the King and the Holy Father and pray for the forgiveness of all who witnessed this unfortunate act.


P.S.: I remind you rules 4&6

[imb39]

Yet again, sir, you level baseless accusations against me. I shall respond to your points. Firstly, regarding the idea that I am treasonous and, again, preaching heresy.

I shall deal with your scurrilous accusations in reverse. The last – a deeply personal and unwarranted attack – must be answered!

Do you not listen? Do you not see the evidence of the Spain’s glory throughout the world? In Europe our King’s reach is vast. His dominion reaches across this great continent - through treaties and vassalages, Spain is truly the jewel amongst nations. God has bestowed his generosity and rewarded Spain for the sacrifices made in the Reconquista to expel the filthy infidels from our rightful lands. Now he rewards us with another Reconquista – this time in the Americas. But there are differences. Before, as I have said, we fought people who knew of the Word. They deserved and still deserve nothing. They have rejected God and his wisdom for a filthy, degenerate religion. The Inquisition was both just and necessary to purge out our Land of the godless. The Indian’s, however, are not stained by this rejection. As they convert, both Spain and the Church grow stronger.

The Indian Nations should be made vassals. The lands within are the King’s, after all, as was so eloquently pointed out. The Indians understand this concept – they practice it themselves. So, I reject your assertion that I am treasonous. But in all of your attempts to label me, you ignore the essential truth – our Mission is to bring the Lord into heathen lands.

Now onto the diatribe that contests the ideas that these ‘savages’ are somewhat civilized.

Again, my friend seems to have great difficulty in hearing. I concede that some of the practices carried are repulsive. How many times must I repeat this? In this they were no different from Romans and Greeks – people he holds in high regard, perhaps, on occasion, too high a regard… I do not want to dwell on this point – I will be talking all of the time, and that is hardly fair.

It is so good that now you seem to turn to the Scriptures for guidance. The wisdom contained therein shame those purported by even the Greeks and Romans you are devoted to. Yes, I am pleased that you have finally come to your senses in abandoning your fidelity with wisdom from antiquity when you have such divine wisdom at hand – but I will not dwell on this either.

It is deeply disturbing that you fail to mention what Books your text comes from… It shows a lack of respect, but I shall not comment on it further, the disrespect for the Lord displayed on the other side of the debate has been shocking, as I am sure all will agree.

Your answer lays within scripture – in fact one that you have twisted to fit your own misguided ideas. As you have clearly omitted where this wisdom comes from, I shall do this for you. Revelations 2:21 – 22:23

‘I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.’

Upon conversion this happens; once they understand the immorality, they repent and their repentance delivers us more converts. I, again, refer you to 1 Corinthians 13:11, as you clearly have too much on your mind.

The Wisdom contained within the Book goes on further in Galatians 3:26-28

“You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”

Now lets examine how the Lord, Jesus Christ – Our Saviour has told us how spread the Word. For do you deny that is our Purpose? Well do you? For I believe you would prefer to deliver those souls to death rather than to eternal salvation, that is something I cannot allow to happen.

Our Lord sacrificed himself for us. This supreme act of love, as Romans 6:8 through to 6:14 culminates with glorious revelation that we are “not under law, but under grace.” This beautiful verse tells us that Jesus’ revelation of the New Testament has dominion over the Old. This is further explained in Galatians 3 10:14

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

As you rightly point out,

Proverbs 30:11-14: "There is a generation that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother. There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men."

I now give you,

John 10:14 - 17

“I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and I'm known by my own; even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd. Therefore the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. ”

You present,

Isaiah 1:4: "Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward."

I give you

John 4:4-28

“He came to a town in Samaria called Sychar. It was near the field that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. Jacob's well was there. Jesus was very tired from walking on the road. So he sat down by the well. It was about midday. A woman from Samaria came to the well to draw water. Jesus said, `Please give me a drink of water.' His disciples had gone into the town to buy some food.

“The woman said to Jesus, `Why do you ask me for a drink of water? You are a Jew and I am from Samaria.'

“Jesus answered her, `You do not know what God gives people. And you do not know who is asking you for a drink. If you knew him, then it is you who would have asked for a drink of water. He would give you living water.'

“The woman said, `Sir, you have nothing to draw with. The well is deep. Where do you get that living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob who gave us this well? He drank water from this well, also his children and cattle.'

“Jesus answered her, `Anyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again. But anyone who drinks the water that I will give him will never be thirsty. The water I give him will become a well inside of him that will never be dry. It will give him life for ever.'

“The woman said, `Sir, give me this water. Then I will never be thirsty again. I will not need to come here to draw water.'

“Jesus said, `Go, call your husband, then come here.'

“She said, `I have no husband.' Jesus said, `You say, "I have no husband." That is true.

“You have had five husbands, but the man you are living with now is not your husband. You have told the truth.'

“The woman said, `Sir, this shows me you are a prophet of God.

“Our fathers came to this mountain to worship God. But you people say Jerusalem is the place people must go to worship him.'

“Jesus said, `Woman, believe what I say. The time is coming when you will not come to this mountain or to Jerusalem to worship my Father. You worship one whom you do not know. But we know whom we worship. The Saviour will come of the Jews. But the time is coming, yes, the time is here already, when those who worship God will worship him in spirit and in a true way. My Father is looking for that kind of people to worship him. God is Spirit. Those who worship him must do so in spirit and in a true way.'

“The woman said to Jesus, `I know that Messiah is coming. His name is Christ. When he comes he will tell us everything.'

“Jesus said to her, `I who am talking to you am he.' When Jesus had said this, his disciples came back.

“They were surprised to hear him talking to a woman. But not one of them asked, `What do you want?' or, `Why are you talking to her?' The woman left her water-pot and went back to the town. She said to the people, `Come, I will show you a man who has told me everything I have done. Can this be the Christ?'”

Do you not see the beauty of this? Do you not see the power of the Lord’s work? Just examine what he did and then compare with what you would do? Here, be befriends a Samaritan woman; woman who has sinned against God’s Law. What does he do? Is there condemnation? Is there servitude? No. Behold Jesus’ example – for there is the answer. Is Jesus’ example not enough for you? And you call yourself a follower of Jesus! I begin to question faith with such dispair, that an inquisition might be in order. Your knowledge of the Word is shameful at best...


-----

Note - I've put in quotes bits from the Bible (so far, my only direct source). This should make it clearer to follow.

[Garbarsardar]

First, let me declare my relief for your acceptance of the fact that land ownership is not and cannot be an issue in this debate. I have no doubt that in the future as well as in our past, no one in his right mind will again attempt to defy the rule of our King and his holiness the Pope.

The main point of this debate is and should be the following: Which is the best way to enforce the Spanish rule in the new territories, and what kind of relations should spain have with the barbarian inhabitants. You say love is the way? It always is. Now let us set the provisions for Love to take strong roots in these Lands.

There is no doubt in my mind that the savages could at a great pain be taught the rule of Law and the Holy Church. Are they succeptible to teaching?:they shall be taught. Are they succeptible to converting?:they shall be converted. Are they mutinous, rebellious and unwilling to see the light?:they shall be brought to it by force.

Let us suppose for the sake of the argument that most of them are willing to be loyal subjects, after our civilization has them elevated from their current animal status. What in that case will keep them from the right path?

First their customs of old, which apart from perversity produced no feat of spirit such as to be compared with the Greeks or even the Romans. So these customs and traditions and fallacious beliefs should be abolished, or they should be forced to abandon them without any hesitation from pur part. Their reward indeed will be great:the protection under the wings of the royal rule!

Second their so called priests and local lords. Not only those are the ones who implemented with the uttermost cruelty their savage traditions, but they're also the ones who still know profit from this hierarchy of dishonour.Those should be immediately eradicated, incarcerated and removed from the domiciles of the natives.Leaving the rotten seeds amongst the new crops is unwise and perilous. In time new leaders immersed in the spanish law and the Love of God shall arise. Until then there should be no question as to WHO rules the place. Transitions as such are dangerous periods and great care should be taken.

Third, I believe it is not right to immediately implement the benefits of the Spanish law. This law is made for our civilized subjects and the provisions pertaining to the rights of our citizens cannot benefit the New Territories. Therefore, the law must be severe and the punushment swift. For it is better to punish with the uttermost severity even if in doubt of the crime, as our main purpose should be to educate by example for the dire consequences of deviation from the law.

Fourth, we shall make clear in their minds to whom their life and thieir land belongs. If they are loyal subjects they have nothing to fear. If in the other hand they try to corrupt their fellows and defy the King's Rule, they should know that they risk everything, they hold dear.

Thus and thus only we could hope that these abominable creatures will ever attain the human status.

[imb39]

Sir,

For me, the pleasure of hearing God’s Wisdom is now tempered. It pains me to once again remind you of where the answers lay – if only you spent as much time studying the Word as you did earthly wisdom, then perhaps you would realise how erroneous your thoughts are. Just to humour you, I will even meet on the intellectual ground that you have chosen!

Firstly let me remind everyone here of Snr. Sepulveda’s first assertion – that the Indians were animals. Well, now he has demonstrated his opaque view of the world by declaring the Indians barbarians, term – please note everyone – that comes from those very Greeks he lovingly admires – even to the obvious detriment of his love of God. I hope that when the Church finally reads this debate that they look kindly on his misplaced love and provide him with further opportunity to explain his... confusion.

Now let us examine the use of the word barbarian – in truth by the definition that Snr. Sepulveda adheres to – we would all be barbarians if we were to use the literal meaning of that word – even our beloved Pontiff and King would be under that accusation; such thoughts are abhorrent. I do hope that you do not mean that!

What is a barbarian? Perhaps it is because that person or nation has conducts strange practice. This could be that there are acts beyond reason; their actions that are devoid of caring, reason – they are ruled by passion. Here, the barbarian is cruel and acts with brutality (please note how this could be applied to my learned colleague…). Here they have clearly not had the ability to pass laws or act subservient when required by their masters. Here they would not have the ability to act as a community, for the community’s sake In short there is a lack of anything that we would associate with humanity. Now does this apply to the Indians? No, I tell you, no! I have already demonstrated that that by this definition they are not barbarians.

Well maybe a barbarian is so called due to the language. The strange sounds produced and, even, lack of written words – in particular – demonstrate that they lack a wisdom that we clearly do, or rather most of us clearly do… This was, as everyone knows, where the word comes from. Yet, to a Greek we would clearly sound strange – barbaric if you will. Many of the Indian tribes have their own written language. This use of language has allowed them to develop their own form of government – how else could treaties, that I have already pointed out, have come to be and recorded? How else can they record the numbers of deaths and births? So, in this case, they are no more barbaric than you, perhaps this is what you meant? I would be most interested to see how Aristotle would regard you as – probably not Greek.

Perhaps a barbarian is one who is stupid. They do not have the wit to organise themselves even remotely effectively. They do not have the ability to organise and follow laws. They do not have the ability to trade, even. Yet we know this is simply not true. I have already demonstrated that this is not the case previously. The evidence is there in the form of villages, towns and cities. Workers perform detailed tasks pertinent to their trade. No, this is not a definition of the word barbarian that can be applied to the Indians.

Well now we come to the last type of barbarian. This one suffers through a lack of knowledge; specifically, in this case, the lack of knowledge of Christ. Yes –here you are correct. By this definition every nation outside of those in Christendom are barbaric. There is only one solution for this barbarian – to embrace God and enter into the Church. This alone will cleanse their soul. This alone cleans away the stench of idolatry and the filth of the superstitious rites and customs that give form to the other vices, both public and private.

But we have to be careful – there are those who are unbelievers due to their, for want of a better word, ignorance. In this case those barbarians have this lack of faith due to experience, others have this lack of faith because they have rejected the Truth.

Again, you must look at the Bible for your wisdom. Acts 14:15 -16 says,

“Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to the living God, who made the sky and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them; who in the generations gone by allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways.”

This shows us that (with the exception of the Jews) the lack of knowledge of God is punishment itself from God. The lack of knowledge of God, therefore, is not a sin in of itself – and so cannot be punished as such. This is the opinion put forward by St. Thomas; perhaps, you question that, sir?

However, if the barbarian refuses to accept the Truth, then he has become like the infidels that infest the Holy Land. They have harmed the Church and should be dealt with appropriately. This does not apply to the Indians.

Now, how to treat these ‘barbarians’?

Well as they are already being punished according to God’s Holy Law already then further punishment as advocated above is acting beyond what God has already provided. So, Sir, I go back to my original point – they should be treated in a manner that we could not call barbaric, so that they can see the full glory of the Lord.

[Garbarsardar]

This shows us that (with the exception of the Jews) the lack of knowledge of God is punishment itself from God. The lack of knowledge of God, therefore, is not a sin in of itself – and so cannot be punished as such. This is the opinion put forward by St. Thomas; perhaps, you question that, sir?

Knowledge. Wasn't this the source of the original sin. Our lord is in our hearts, and is not subjected to any cognition. Our missionaries can merely teach the word of God so these savage creatures recognise it as the eternal truth.
Furthermore there is no lack of knowledge about God.Again because God has nothing to do with knowledge.And we never punish the savages for what they don't know. We punish them so they can see the result of their erroneous ways, we punish them because this is the will of the Lord, that before the Final Judgement his representatives on this Earth should deliver punishment in his name.
Or your eminence should think that we should abolish our great religious courts because

lack of knowledge of God, therefore, is not a sin in of itself

?

Perhaps forgive and forget the heretics who blemish the holy church and poison the minds of the simple people because

lack of knowledge of God, therefore, is not a sin in of itself

?

Well as they are already being punished according to God’s Holy Law already then further punishment as advocated above is acting beyond what God has already provided. So, Sir, I go back to my original point – they should be treated in a manner that we could not call barbaric, so that they can see the full glory of the Lord.

Monsignor, would you protest that our treatment of heretics has been harsh?
That the Holy Inquisition used erroneous ways?

What would you recommend instead? A warm bath perhaps?

[imb39]

Before I begin to respond to your simple view on how we should treat the Indians, may I remind you of a few points.

1) You declared that these Indians were animals. Do you still contend this? I suspect that even you know this is not true as -
2) You then go on to suggest that they are barbaric. As I have pointed out to you - they are no more barbaric than the Greeks you love so much (indeed more than God, it would seem at times...)

Now you seem to have abandoned that - there is only one common trait that you hold true in all of your argument - that of retreat. Admit your errors now, I say! Now! Everytime you open your mouth you betray God, The Pope, Our Beloved King and Spain. I urge you to seek forgiveness. The only bath that should be considered is the one that can clean you from your foul thoughts.

Do you not even remember what I have already said in this debate? Do you need reminding?

The Holy Inquisition was fully justified. We cleansed Spain of the filthy infidel who had rejected God - they are no longer worthy of our compassion - but it is our solemn duty to point out the error of their ways and burning them purifies their soul, we do this for them!

The situation in the Indies is completely different. The Word, here, is not rejected. The Word is is embraced as the Truth and Majesty of God's Love overcomes the ignorance that they have - the ignorance - as I have pointed out - is God's punishment. It is not for YOU to punish them further it is for US to extend God's Grace to all in those lands.

I urge you now - stop before you further demean us with your heresy. Your twisted view of God's love and our Missionhas to stop!
Look to the Bible!
Look to Jesus' actions!
Look to Jesus' love!
In these places you will find enlightenment, not the dark, dank, degenerate fallacies you hold on to.

[imb39]

Ah, the wonderer has returned! Perhaps he will now accept his folly!